Best Sharpening Method

[paul cottingham]

He lives in the same city as I do. I have never met him of course, nor met anyone who has. Perhaps he is a reclusive genius.

[Christopher Kurdziel]

I was just trying to experiment with different sharpening methods. My issue was with speed and quickly establishing a new bevel. I tried a worksharp and I loved it. I just ordered one.

Anyways, I use my planes for smoothing and trimming joinery. Chisels for normal chisel work.

My question now is to anyone who uses power sharpeners. I was considering keeping my 4000/8000 stone and strop, but then I saw this (https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/Dia-S...Kit-P27C9.aspx) and Work Sharp's leather wheel. Would it be worth the money to get those Magna-Discs so i'm not constantly buying sandpaper? Also, should I ditch the 4000/8000 stone and strop and use one on the Work Sharp? I'm assuming my tools would be just as sharp as they were on my previous method of sharpening.

Thanks for all the responses. A lot of useful information here!

[george wilson]

Canada is good enough. I just wondered what he was using all those hunting knives for if he was in JAPAN!

[ken hatch]

Thanks Ken and Patrick for pointing out that Oilstones most certainly can be flattened. I always like to point out that there is a diversity of opinion on this. On the one hand you have folks like Warren who basically never abrade their oilstones; on the other you have Larry Williams who abrades them every single time he sharpens. Probably most users will fall somewhere in between these points.

Recently I was introduced to the idea of aligning fineness of stone to fineness of grading media. In other words, use a very fine diamond stone to grade a hard black or trannie Ark, and use coarser media to grade coarser stones. I have an "extra fine" Eze lap (1200, wtf that means) that was useless to me, since I loathe diamond stones, but I've been using it to grade my hard black, and I'm impressed with the results so far (but that's a provisional conclusion; I've only been doing it a couple months).

Steve,

I've never understood why Ark stones get so little love. Little mess, little upkeep, they work well with most steel, and cheap compared to most stones. That last may be part of the answer, being cheap there isn't much money to be made off 'em. Just to add a couple more things I like about Ark stones: They have a wonderful feel in hand and leave an edge with a very nice scratch pattern especially when compared to the edge left by diamond plates. In a rational world most of us would be driving up the price of the oil stones. Maybe it's a good thing they get so little love.

ken

[Curt Putnam]

I have a Worksharp 3000 and Stu's famous set of 3 Sigma Power stones, Now I mostly use the WS as a grinder and the stones for actual honing. So, depending on much you need to grind new bevels, acquiring diamond discs may make financial sense. Understand that using the WS chisel "hole" (I forget what it's called) will rapidly wear out you paper in a narrow band creating huge paper consumption. The solution is to get their wide blade adapter or to build your table. Search YouTube for some nice builds. For normal honing I stick with the Sigma stones (1000, 6000, 13000) because they produce an edge that keeps me happy. I figure the 13K stone is close enough to a leather strop so I quit there. The leather stropping wheel is what mostly lives on my WS. I have some nice chisels and I want to keep them that way - which is why I use the stones. Bad stuff happens quickly on power tools.

I have some left over diamond stones that I think I ruined with excessive pressure but they still cut albeit slowly. I've got some coarser stones, both water and diamond that I will experiment with on a load of vintage beater chisels that I've acquired. Whether diamond discs for the WS make financial sense depends on how much gear you have that needs extensive grinding.

All IMO & YMWV

Curt

[Patrick Chase]

Steve,

I've never understood why Ark stones get so little love. Little mess, little upkeep, they work well with most steel, and cheap compared to most stones. That last may be part of the answer, being cheap there isn't much money to be made off 'em. Just to add a couple more things I like about Ark stones: They have a wonderful feel in hand and leave an edge with a very nice scratch pattern especially when compared to the edge left by diamond plates. In a rational world most of us would be driving up the price of the oil stones. Maybe it's a good thing they get so little love.

ken

Quality polishing Arks aren't cheap at all. See for example the Norton translucent stone at TFWW (I think this is the one Larry Williams famously uses and flattens) and the corresponding Dan's translucent and black/x-fine stones.

I think that oilstones get a bad rap for a few reasons:

1. I think Joel Moskowitz is right when he points out that there are a lot of cheap, crappy Arks on the market, and those have tarnished the entire category. Waterstones still have a certain amount of "high end cachet", arks don't.

2. The synthetic oilstones currently on the market (Indias etc) are not in the same league as quality synthetic waterstones in terms of speed/scratch-pattern tradeoff, and people don't realize that good natural arks are in the same price class as the aforementioned waterstones and are therefore a more appropriate basis for comparison.

3. IMO the best waterstones really do deliver a better speed/scratch-pattern than the best Arks, particularly on "exotic" steels, though the Arks are more convenient for a lot of uses. I say that as somebody who owns a Norton hard/translucent Ark and has used the equivalent Dan's stone. The waterstones aren't anywhere near as far ahead as most people seem to think, though.

[Patrick Chase]

I was just trying to experiment with different sharpening methods. My issue was with speed and quickly establishing a new bevel. I tried a worksharp and I loved it. I just ordered one.

Anyways, I use my planes for smoothing and trimming joinery. Chisels for normal chisel work.

My question now is to anyone who uses power sharpeners. I was considering keeping my 4000/8000 stone and strop, but then I saw this (https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/Dia-S...Kit-P27C9.aspx) and Work Sharp's leather wheel. Would it be worth the money to get those Magna-Discs so i'm not constantly buying sandpaper? Also, should I ditch the 4000/8000 stone and strop and use one on the Work Sharp? I'm assuming my tools would be just as sharp as they were on my previous method of sharpening.

Thanks for all the responses. A lot of useful information here!

A lot of people buy 8" diamond discs from Amazon or E-Bay and use them on Work Sharp or Veritas rotary sharpeners. I use them for stuff that can't be hollow-ground, like the faces of mortise chisels. They cost about half what the DMT ones do, and double-sticky tape works fine to stick them down (I'm sure there are other ways too).

The DMT 3 um paste is OK. I used that on mild steel honing plates before I switched over to PSI paste. Note that 3 um corresponds to #3000-#5000 depending on whose rating system you use, and monocrystalline diamond pastes like DMT/Norton/PSI don't break down much with use. IMO that's a little more coarse than ideal for polishing.

[Brian Holcombe]

Quality polishing Arks aren't cheap at all. See for example the Norton translucent stone at TFWW (I think this is the one Larry Williams famously uses and flattens) and the corresponding Dan's translucent and black/x-fine stones.

I think that oilstones get a bad rap for a few reasons:

1. I think Joel Moskowitz is right when he points out that there are a lot of cheap, crappy Arks on the market, and those have tarnished the entire category. Waterstones still have a certain amount of "high end cachet", arks don't.

2. The synthetic oilstones currently on the market (Indias etc) are not in the same league as quality synthetic waterstones in terms of speed/scratch-pattern tradeoff, and people don't realize that good natural arks are in the same price class as the aforementioned waterstones and are therefore a more appropriate basis for comparison.

3. IMO the best waterstones really do deliver a better speed/scratch-pattern than the best Arks, particularly on "exotic" steels, though the Arks are more convenient for a lot of uses. I say that as somebody who owns a Norton hard/translucent Ark and has used the equivalent Dan's stone. The waterstones aren't anywhere near as far ahead as most people seem to think, though.

I suspect Ken's frame of reference is Japanese Natural Stones, where one can spend up to five figures on a finisher if one is so inclined. Even the 'everyday' stuff in full sized form are typically $175-500~

[Warren Mickley]

I was just trying to experiment with different sharpening methods. My issue was with speed and quickly establishing a new bevel. I tried a worksharp and I loved it. I just ordered one.

Anyways, I use my planes for smoothing and trimming joinery. Chisels for normal chisel work.

My question now is to anyone who uses power sharpeners. I was considering keeping my 4000/8000 stone and strop, but then I saw this (https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/Dia-S...Kit-P27C9.aspx) and Work Sharp's leather wheel. Would it be worth the money to get those Magna-Discs so i'm not constantly buying sandpaper? Also, should I ditch the 4000/8000 stone and strop and use one on the Work Sharp? I'm assuming my tools would be just as sharp as they were on my previous method of sharpening.

Thanks for all the responses. A lot of useful information here!

Chris, I asked you on Sunday (post #2) what kinds of stones you have. You answered about the water stones, but not the oil stones. Assuming that your oil stone collection has an Arkansas stone and a medium grit synthetic stone like Silicon carbide or India, then you already have enough stones for two craftsmen, sufficient for high quality work. You already have redundancy.

I have never in my life "established a new bevel" even though I have tools I have used for forty and fifty years and sharpened away two inches on some of them. I recommend you scrap the Worksharp, the Diasharp discs, and the sandpaper, and learn to sharpen instead.

[lowell holmes]

See my post about sharpening a skewed block plane.

[george wilson]

I used Arkansas stones years ago. I can tell you that they will work fine on MOST steels. But,Arkansas stones are VERY SOFT compared to ceramic stones. I simply could not get my Arkansas stone to fully sharpen a D2 steel knife I had made.

The ceramic stones WILL sharpen any D2 or other steel I have tried on them. And,they never seem to wear hollow. So,as I've said many times,I am staying with my diamond,and black and white ceramic stones,and my set of ceramic slip stones.

I have "established a bevel",I would have to say it's a "new bevel",because it IS, many many times,because when I MAKE a new knife,chisel,carving tool or plane iron,I HAVE TO. The largest bevels I have established were on the 6" wide crown and bed molding planes I made for the House Wrights. They said they planed planed 130' of hard yellow pine without resharpening. And,DIRT and DUST is a fact of daily life at the House Wright's site. I made their blades from scratch myself because I was afraid of durability on the part of blacksmith blades. They like to use lower carbon steel in the bits of their blades because it doesn't burn up and decarb at welding heat. I made these large blades from solid tool steel. Not quite fully authentic,but I sometimes felt sorry for some of these guys who had to plane large pieces of wood out in the heat and cold. Coopers are definitely included in this blade making. They plane white oak all the time. And had only those miserably soft sandstone wheels to grind with. Unless they came to visit me.

[Derek Cohen]

I was just trying to experiment with different sharpening methods. My issue was with speed and quickly establishing a new bevel. I tried a worksharp and I loved it. I just ordered one.

Anyways, I use my planes for smoothing and trimming joinery. Chisels for normal chisel work.

My question now is to anyone who uses power sharpeners. I was considering keeping my 4000/8000 stone and strop, but then I saw this (https://www.dmtonlinestore.com/Dia-S...Kit-P27C9.aspx) and Work Sharp's leather wheel. Would it be worth the money to get those Magna-Discs so i'm not constantly buying sandpaper? Also, should I ditch the 4000/8000 stone and strop and use one on the Work Sharp? I'm assuming my tools would be just as sharp as they were on my previous method of sharpening.

Thanks for all the responses. A lot of useful information here!

Why are we bothering to answer this guy? He is not listening to any advice that has been offered or any questions that have been asked. I still do not know whether he freehands, uses a guide, or expects a machine to do all the work for him! Christopher, unless you actually respond to questions, you will just get more and more useless answers - useless only because you are not interested in what is offered. Many of these suggestions come from experienced users, however whether they are helpful is anyone's guess.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

I wish ROB LEE would enter this thread and talk about his green compound(which is what I use).

I get a razor sharp edge with LV green compound. What I do is just WEAR OUT the compound on a piece of MDF. I think,and always have,that just USING the same compound well worn out will reduce the large size particles,if there are any,break them down as the strop is used,and produce a finer edge. I have not verified this with a microscope. My edges were plenty sharp enough to carve anything with,even tiny carvings.

(snip)

Hi George!

I have been following the thread....!

What I always tell people is the best sharpening method is the one you understand, use and have confidence in. That includes experimenting, if that's what engages you (and you can afford it!).

I have access to (and own) all sorts of sharpening equipment and media.

My go-to kit for personal sharpening is a 1000X waterstone, a 4000-6000x waterstone, and the green compound on pine (a chromium oxide and aluminum oxide mix) most of the time, and once in a while, the Veritas platter based system. If I am sharpening a lot of blades - I will likely skew to the power tools side of sharpening, using belts and the power sharpener. Sometimes, how I sharpen is a matter of workflow, and not preference.

Prashun made an excellent point earlier in the thread - watch others, and have others watch you. One can always learn more, or improve. Knowledge is what will have the greatest impact on sharpening ability.

Sharpening is an activity that covers a lot of territory, from reconditioning and re-establishing geometry, to just touching up an edge. The destination is the same - but the path may be different, depending on the tool, it's condition, and it's use.

I've had excellent results from a wide variety of methods and media, but keep going back to what I've used most of my life.

Were I to start over, I think I would add a lot more diamond pastes and films as part of my regular routine.

Cheers -

Rob

[george wilson]

Rob,I established my final sharpening system many years ago,and am perfectly happy with it.

My question was about the green compound. Don't you feel that any larger particles will crush into smaller particles or imbed into the strop?

I use the LV green compound and am quite happy with it. Last night I noticed that I had missed a few hairs above my lip when I shaved this morning,after not shaving for a few days. So,I took out my pocket knife with the ball bearing steel blade that I made for it. I shaved off the errant hairs. And this after I had used the blade to whittle a piece of yellow pine.

[Rob Lee]

Rob,I established my final sharpening system many years ago,and am perfectly happy with it.

My question was about the green compound. Don't you feel that any larger particles will crush into smaller particles or imbed into the strop?

I use the LV green compound and am quite happy with it. Last night I noticed that I had missed a few hairs above my lip when I shaved this morning,after not shaving for a few days. So,I took out my pocket knife with the ball bearing steel blade that I made for it. I shaved off the errant hairs. And this after I had used the blade to whittle a piece of yellow pine.

Hi George -

You're absolutely correct - the larger particle are friable, and will either dull or break down into smaller sharper particles. On a soft substrate, the larger particle will bed deeper, lessening the their apparent size difference.

What I like about the green compound is the combination of speed and polish - which comes from the abrasive mixture. For carving tools in particular, it is an excellent choice, as you can make a cut in pine (or basswood) and then load the cut with compound to make a perfectly shaped hone.

Cheers -

Rob