Saw Pitch (with Maths)

[Tom M King]

I have a couple of 4-1/2 point rip saws, and have never thought about how many teeth I need in the cut. I'm sure I've ripped some 3/4" boards with them, and they do just fine in Poplar or Pine. I don't think I've ever had those teeth in hardwood. The other rip saws I have (talking hand saws, and not backsaws) are 6 pt., and those are the ones I reach for in hardwoods.

I think the thickest ripping I've done is cutting tenons in 6" thick Heart Pine, Silver Maple, and Redwood. The 4-1/2 pt. saws worked just fine in those woods.

A 4-1/2 pt. saw is a lot faster cutting than a 6 pt. with only the exit being a little rougher because of the bigger, and more violent bite, but for this sort of cut, I don't ever remember expecting a finished edge.

[Jonathan Board]

I've always thought of it as the below:

***Picture copied from the Blackburn Tools website.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes Jonathan, that is also how I recall seeing the differences between tpi and ppi explained.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I can count points without having to stop and think about it, whereas tooth count always seems like it takes a translation.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks Jim

I agree, ideally I'd experiment with a range of saws over a period of time and work out what's right for me but I'm ploughing my own furrough down at the bottom of the world (New Zealand) and when I start talking rip saws people tell me to get a table saw.
I've scoured the flea markets for old Disston saws and I've got four 26" saws that I'm in the process of rehabbing into "rough" and "fine", rip and cross-cut saws; currently they mock me from the box under my sharpening station because I can't commit to toothing pattern.
I will admit to over-analysing subjects like this but I think it's good to understand where these rules of thumb come from so that you can make a more informed first guess.
If you'd asked me last week, I'd have told you that I would be filing the saws 5 TPI Rip, 7 TPI CC, 8 TPI Rip and 10 TPI CC but now I'm not so sure.
I have an idea to use progressive pitch and let the saw file guide my range of TPI but of course no two woodworkers can agree on which range of teeth a particular saw file files.
Adam Cherubini makes a 24-28" Saw with 3-5 TPI progressive pitch and handily Mike Wenzloff recommends a 7 Slim for exactly this range of teeth so I might start out with that.

Hi Jonathan,

You have asked a lot of excellent questions. I also don't have a table saw and have been relying on hand saws for a long time. When I first got started with handsaw's, all the variables such as PPI/TPI, tooth geometry, set etc. were confusing to me. At the time, as a young husband/father who simply needed to get some basic stuff built, I thought ultimately it would be good to understand all the saw details to get the best performance possible (like any tool), however for now, I was looking for a simple "rule of thumb" about what I needed to do decent work. Fortunately for me my neighbor was a retired Navy Seabee who had built all kinds of stuff all over the world, often with hand tools. He gave me some excellent advice which am happy to share: "the basic preindustrial woodworkers saw nest started with 3 saws: 7-8 PPI crosscut for breaking down rough stock, at 10-12 PPI for finish cross cutting to final dimensions and a 5 1/2 PPI rip saw. Adding more saws after these three is what happens when you go from being a Journeyman to a Master".

Since then, over the years I've had the opportunity to sharpen/tuneup and use pretty much every configuration of handsaw. Today I'm embarrassed to admit how many I have hanging on the wall, but I have saws optimized for every sawing task and use them on a daily basis. The sad fact is I have a bad "hand saw problem".That said a couple thoughts for you to consider:

* Start with saws that already have the pitch (PPI) your looking for. Trying to convert an 8 PPI crosscut or into a 5 PPI rip saw is an extremely tall order.

* Progressive pitch was commonly offered in top-of-the-line model rip saws by all the major manufacturers, but never in crosscut saws. Often that means a rip saw with 5 PPI at the tote and 6 PPI at the toe. If you have a saw like that, maintain the original, progressive pitch, but I wouldn't recommend trying to create progressive pitch in a crosscut saw; lots of work/potential for error and no meaningful improvement in performance.

* After the initial three saws, adding a 6-7 PPI rip saw for 1/2" Hardwoods and 4/4 tropical hardwoods is a good idea.

* A 4 PPI rip saw for 8/4 and thicker stock will save a lot of time, but at some point a bandsaw is a better option.

* Finally, the best ROI on adding additional saws to those mentioned above is is related to working in both damp, construction grade, softwoods and kiln dried hardwoods. The former require additional set so the plate doesn't bind in the kerf as the damp wood expands behind the teeth.

Adding additional saws simply makes your work more efficient, in the same way that having a #5 Jack plane with a cambered blade for leveling rough surfaces and another #5 with a less cambered blade for leveling the surface prior to smoothing does.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

All the best, Mike

[Jonathan Board]

Thanks for all the helpful responses, I have come to a decision; I have decided to build a nest of saws around the below focusing initially on the four saws in BOLD:

Saw	Stock Thickness	RIP PPI	CC PPI
Rip (28")	8/4-6/4	3 1/2	4 1/2
Half-Rip (26")	6/4-4/4	5	6
Hand (24")	4/4-3/4	7	8
Panel (22")	3/4-2/4	10	11

They'll all four be 26" saws but I'll pick up a couple of 6 Slim, X-Slim and XX-Slim Grobets up on the weekend and get cracking!

Special thanks to Mike Allen... Your advice was very reassuring and sounded exactly like the sort of steady advice I would have received from my grandfather (were he still with us) who was a Naval Shipwright many moons ago.

[Patrick Chase]

I can count points without having to stop and think about it, whereas tooth count always seems like it takes a translation.

Err, you know how to subtract one, right?

[Tom M King]

I don't think in words, and have just used points for handsaws, and TPI for bandsaw blades for so long that I don't have to stop and think about what a given count of either is. It's kind of like someone who reads fast that's irritated by a word of improper grammar. Having to stop and think about it is an unnecessary, and irritating break. It never made sense to me to use both types of counts.

[lowell holmes]

Following Tage Frid and others I have handsaws 6, 8, and 10 filed rip.

I also have crosscut saws at 8, 9, and 10 tpi.

The 9 is a saw handed down from my wife's family. It was used by a Hoboken stair builder from the early 20th century.
It is a nice saw to use.

I typically use the saw I'm in the mood for at the moment. I know I am the only one that does that.

If I'm going to the hardwood lumber company, I will have 8 point cross cut in the truck

[Chuck Nickerson]

Thanks Jim
Adam Cherubini makes a 24-28" Saw with 3-5 TPI progressive pitch and handily Mike Wenzloff recommends a 7 Slim for exactly this range of teeth so I might start out with that.

Adam Cherubini makes, as in present tense? Is he back and making saws again?

[Jonathan Board]

Adam Cherubini makes, as in present tense? Is he back and making saws again?

I can't speak to that, I'm afraid; I'm just referring to this webpage http://www.adamcherubini.com/Long_Saws.html