Yes, You Need a Jointer and a Jack

[Stewie Simpson]

My reference to "fanboys" was derogatory to those who follow blindly, and constantly refer in discussions to Paul for correct technique. It is not a comment about Paul.

With respect Derek; what do you hope to gain by being derogatory to those who seek advise given from Paul Sellers; is a change of allegiance to your own fan base being offered;

it makes perfect sense to most who share an interest within woodworking, to look upon someone like Paul Sellers as being a source of sound and reliable information to draw inspiration from; the guy has close to 50yrs of full time experience within the woodworking trade; have a read his bio and see if you can match it with your own woodworking experience. https://paulsellers.com/paul-sellers-biography/

Stewie;

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm fairly certain that PS is so adamant in saying "a #4 can do it all" simply because he wants people to jump in and create stuff. He doesn't want there to be barriers and excused why you can't get a job done. That is all.

.

It's anybody's guess why Sellers said the #4 can do everything. And my guess -- as good as anyone's -- is that he didn't say it "because he wants people to jump in and create stuff." He said that because he actually has the skill to do it. I have tried it -- yes with just my low angle smoother -- and it worked well on the edge of a 4 ft board. But it takes not only skill but patience and time. If you're good with your plane, you can do it too: Get a square and a straight edge, say, 2ft long. Mark the high spots and plane them off with very light cuts one at a time and check. You can move along (and forward) until you get a straight edge from start to end. Doable, 100%. BUT, I could finish the same in 1/4 of the time used with a jointer.

Sellers, in my view, was simply stating the obvious that with skill, you can do a lot even with a limited set of tools. Hasn't that been his teaching all along?: He shows how make a poor man's router with a chisel (and he owns many router planes); he shows how to make a beading tool with just a block and a screw; etc.

Sellers says a lot of things and we shouldn't overread everything he says. His style is as unique as any other teachers'. When he says a #4 can do all...I believe him, but I just don't need to follow him on that (as I don't plan to get rid of all my long planes from the low angle jack and up). Just as some preach they would never sand after planing a board, I sand whenever/if I want to.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

When I met Paul Sellers, he and others, Stan Beckworth for one were conducting classes "Furniture Making With Handtools". When you went to the workbench you found four blue handle Marple chisels, a mallet, a back saw, and a Stanley plane. This took place at Homestead Heritage near Waco, Texas. They taught us how to make mortise and tenon joints, dado's, how to plane a board smooth, and dovetail joints. The school is still in operation. Stan Beckworth is better using chisels in making joints than any one I've seen. We used box cutters for a marking gage. I still prefer a box cutter for marking . You just tilt the blade so one side of the bevel is vertical.

Frank Strazza and others are conducting classes now. Google his name and you will see his prize winning work.

The beat goes on.

Paul, Stan, Frank and others are exceptional woodworkers.

When we went home, many of us went out and bought the tools we had used at Waco. The cost of the tools were under $100. This was around the year 1995. So you see, Paul's methods work.
I'm surprised so many resent what they are doing. It's sound handtool woodworking techniques.

They have a booth at the Houston Woodworking Show each year. One thing they do is demonstrate making dovetail joints with a backsaw and coping saw. They do it without laying the dovetails
out . They just put a board in a vise and saw the tails using a back saw and chisel. They mark the pins from the tails they just cut. The joint produced is incredible. They do draw a single line across the board to cut to. They do not mark the dovetails. They do mark the pins using the dovetails they just cut.

You may understand where a lot of the techniques they use originated.

[Patrick Chase]

Wow, this thread is starting to make me feel compelled to defend Sellars, and that takes some serious doing.

It's anybody's guess why Sellers said the #4 can do everything.

He said it because it's true, at least inasmuch as "everything" encompasses the classical bench plane tasks of roughing, jointing, and smoothing.

The operative words in that sentence are "can do", not "is ideal for". The #4 can in fact do everything, and it doesn't take as much skill as you might think. Yes, you'll have to resort to the straightedge a lot more when jointing. Yes, any roughing you do will be very slow going if you don't have a second, cambered blade. But it *can* in fact do both in addition to smoothing.

I know a lot of people who think that effective hand-tool woodworking requires a massive upfront investment (and the sight of my own...err..."collection" usually doesn't help convince them otherwise). Sellars is trying to combat that message, and IMO he's doing God's Work in that regard (tm).

[Stewie Simpson]

Patrick; if you watch the Paul Sellers video he is using a #4 with a cambered blade to do the rough work.

Stewie;

[Derek Cohen]

It appears that a few noses are out of joint with regard my use of "Fanboys". And they are correct to be. It was said in jest, and clearly struck a nerve, and this was wrong of me to word things this way. To those I offended, I apologise.

There is a more relevant underbelly that can be mentioned. The thread began with a quote from Chris Schwarz about the use of handplanes that (although implied but not stated) that Paul Sellers does not advocate the use of. Both Chris and Paul have done an enormous amount of work to encourage handtool woodworking. In this they share a common purpose, however they go about this differently.

Chris wrote a wonderful book about becoming an anarchist in the workshop. The philosophy behind this was a curious mix of 'think for yourself' but do so following 'traditional lines'. For example, his popularising of "coarse, medium and fine" focuses the woodworker on a universal work sequence, and the choice of handplanes for this. Although Chris argues the case for individuality, he has his roots firmly in history (his research attests to this).

Paul is an anarchist in his own right. He champion's keeping tool excess and expenditure out of building furniture. He wants it to be affordable. To do this he reduces the choice of handplanes, with his #4 smoother doing double, even triple duty. Bench chisels are treated the same way, as is sharpening. I do not think that he would work this way for himself when out of the public sight (since he is traditionally trained). The overall attempt at simplification woodwork is a deliberate ploy to attract a following (after all, he is in business - which is not to demean the good he has done).

Both Chris and Paul have personal blogs and forums. If you ever visit these you will be strikingly aware that there is never any debate, just agreement (and if I were less kind, a bunch of fawning messages). I guess I am a bit jaded at this time. I find this all a bit sickly. Far from the independence of thought that both these fine gentlemen advocate, one sees in their followers a literalness of thought that derives from placing someone high on a pedestal and never questioning their advice. What follows is that these disciples proclaim the gospel on other forums (not so much this one). I dip into some of these occasionally, and leave quickly. So .. my knee-jerk reaction.

Clearly I was a jerk. I am all for supporting newcomers to woodworking. I need to be more tolerant.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The operative words in that sentence are "can do", not "is ideal for". The #4 can in fact do everything, and it doesn't take as much skill as you might think.

So often the "operative words" of one considered a 'guru of woodworking' get embedded in the new comer's mind and mixed up into "the #4 is the only plane one will ever need." Then things can become frustrating when they try to join two boards to make a panel. Of course they can put the two boards side by side to offset any out of square areas. If undulations occur there will be gaps.

Of course if you have a shop full of power tools that might take care of the problem... If they can't afford more to get started than a #4, they likely won't have a shop full of power tools either.

It is fine to try to keep one's shop cost to a minimum. There is a point where a person may find it to their advantage to have tools designed to do a particular task more efficiently.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Just as some preach they would never sand after planing a board, I sand whenever/if I want to.

Simon

I do not sand as much as I used to. But for me it is one of the ways to deal with tear out. Besides, if something needs sanding I try to get my wife to do it. She actually likes sanding.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

When I met Paul Sellers, he and others, Stan Beckworth for one were conducting classes "Furniture Making With Handtools". When you went to the workbench you found four blue handle Marple chisels, a mallet, a back saw, and a Stanley plane.

What? 4 chisels? AND a backsaw, AND a Stanley plane? You could do with just one chisel, break the wood over your knee and cut of the fibers with the one chisel. Attach the chisel to a block of wood and you have a plane. Forget about the mallet too, use any lump of wood lying around. Or a street brick.

Of course that is nonsence. The above small kit of tools is a perfect way to get started on your first steps in making things from wood. As long as you keep with predimensioned pine and poplar from the box store, you can continue for quite a while. But when you want to grow, when you want to use rough sawn wood, when you want to make larger or more complex things, it just makes sence to slowly add to your tool collection. We are not talking about a fully outfitted specialised shop, just the basics. A jackplane (cheap!) a jointer (can be a cheaper wooden one). When you want to incorporate some grooves in your work, then a plow plane starts to be a really good idea, etc.

Clinging all the time to the idea that everything can be done with a #4 gets limiting after a while. It would be a good idea of Paul Sellers to acknowledge that fact and teach how the traditional aproach of woodworking really works.

[Luke Dupont]

What? 4 chisels? AND a backsaw, AND a Stanley plane? You could do with just one chisel, break the wood over your knee and cut of the fibers with the one chisel. Attach the chisel to a block of wood and you have a plane. Forget about the mallet too, use any lump of wood lying around. Or a street brick.

Of course that is nonsence. The above small kit of tools is a perfect way to get started on your first steps in making things from wood. As long as you keep with predimensioned pine and poplar from the box store, you can continue for quite a while. But when you want to grow, when you want to use rough sawn wood, when you want to make larger or more complex things, it just makes sence to slowly add to your tool collection. We are not talking about a fully outfitted specialised shop, just the basics. A jackplane (cheap!) a jointer (can be a cheaper wooden one). When you want to incorporate some grooves in your work, then a plow plane starts to be a really good idea, etc.

Clinging all the time to the idea that everything can be done with a #4 gets limiting after a while. It would be a good idea of Paul Sellers to acknowledge that fact and teach how the traditional aproach of woodworking really works.

Ummm.... Paul routinely uses an array of more specialized tools. Spokeshaves, Router planes, Scrub planes, even Jacks, Jointers, and shoulder planes on rare occasion, and of course an array of Chisels, Gouges, Rip and Crosscut saws, etc. etc. He just gives simple alternatives in case you don't have a particular tool, or perhaps even, prefer to use a different one. He chooses to focus on the fundamentals; an approach that I find very helpful.

I don't think he's the only one to think this way, either. I quite like watching The English Woodworker for the same reasons; he shows how to use a chisel in instances where many people just pick up a shoulder plane, or moving filister, and leave you without any instruction on how to go about doing the job if you lack such an expensive, specialized tool. He also had a video suggesting a singular plane one might choose to own, in which he suggests a Jack (which he had some good logic for preferring over the No. 4, but still recognized that a No. 4 would be a good choice as well.) So, I don't think the notion that one plane can do it all is entirely a Paul Sellers thing. It really just comes down, again, to mindset. Some prefer to have all of the specialized tools, and are more specialized in their work, whilst others might prefer a more flexible, minimalist approach.

You just start with the fundamentals, and then get what specialized tools you really need, as you need them. For instance, I don't think I will need a jointer any time soon. I do see the benefit of longer planes, and a jack is something I think I'll use, but it's just not very often that I find myself wanting to make anything large enough to warrant a jointer; the only time being when I'm working on a work bench. Otherwise, I rarely need to work with anything larger than 2-3'. If that changes, I can go get a jointer. But why should I rush out and buy one right now?

[Kees Heiden]

Yes that's fair. It probably was more an impression I got then the reality. That's how these thing go often enough.

[Kees Heiden]

And now I think a bit more about it, maybe the standard advice of getting a jack, jointer and smoother, is a bit silly too. Totally depends on what you want to use it for. The great majority of woodworkers don't own or use a plane at all, they would be well served with just a #4 for fitting, chamfering, stuff like that. Power tool woodworkers often have no use for a jack and a jointer at all.

[Luke Dupont]

It appears that a few noses are out of joint with regard my use of "Fanboys". And they are correct to be. It was said in jest, and clearly struck a nerve, and this was wrong of me to word things this way. To those I offended, I apologise.

There is a more relevant underbelly that can be mentioned. The thread began with a quote from Chris Schwarz about the use of handplanes that (although implied but not stated) that Paul Sellers does not advocate the use of. Both Chris and Paul have done an enormous amount of work to encourage handtool woodworking. In this they share a common purpose, however they go about this differently.

Chris wrote a wonderful book about becoming an anarchist in the workshop. The philosophy behind this was a curious mix of 'think for yourself' but do so following 'traditional lines'. For example, his popularising of "coarse, medium and fine" focuses the woodworker on a universal work sequence, and the choice of handplanes for this. Although Chris argues the case for individuality, he has his roots firmly in history (his research attests to this).

Paul is an anarchist in his own right. He champion's keeping tool excess and expenditure out of building furniture. He wants it to be affordable. To do this he reduces the choice of handplanes, with his #4 smoother doing double, even triple duty. Bench chisels are treated the same way, as is sharpening. I do not think that he would work this way for himself when out of the public sight (since he is traditionally trained). The overall attempt at simplification woodwork is a deliberate ploy to attract a following (after all, he is in business - which is not to demean the good he has done).

Both Chris and Paul have personal blogs and forums. If you ever visit these you will be strikingly aware that there is never any debate, just agreement (and if I were less kind, a bunch of fawning messages). I guess I am a bit jaded at this time. I find this all a bit sickly. Far from the independence of thought that both these fine gentlemen advocate, one sees in their followers a literalness of thought that derives from placing someone high on a pedestal and never questioning their advice. What follows is that these disciples proclaim the gospel on other forums (not so much this one). I dip into some of these occasionally, and leave quickly. So .. my knee-jerk reaction.

Clearly I was a jerk. I am all for supporting newcomers to woodworking. I need to be more tolerant.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Cohen,

I didn't actually take offense (and hopefully noone else did either!). And, I can appreciate your point.

I think it's just human nature to cling to a particular teacher's philosophy and take that as gospel. I see it a lot in the world of Martial Arts as well. Sometimes it bothers me, but I think most people "grow out" of it as they get exposed to other points of view. And some, despite being narrow minded, go on to become very skilled regardless.

My only caution is that people fond of a particular teacher or style are often mistakenly lumped into that category of cultish fanboys / hero worshippers, just because it's hard to discern on the surface. Well, you know, unless they're going around telling everyone how wrong they are. But even then, communication is a complicated thing, and people aren't always on the same page.

I've actually been really impressed by the quality of the community here. This is one of the most civil, friendly, and open minded forums that I've seen, and that's saying a lot.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Kees Heiden;2577092]And now I think a bit more about it, maybe the standard advice of getting a jack, jointer and smoother, is a bit silly too.]

I take exception to this statement, I refuse to give up my toys.

[Kees Heiden]

If you use handtools primairily, then sure: get them all three!