Kataba and Ryoba Craftsman Identification

[nima hadavi]

So I have been using these three saws for a little while now and am wondering if anyone has ANY info at all on these saws. I was given little information on the saws but here are some photos:
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Here is one side of the middle Ryoba:
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Annnddddd the other:
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And here is the Kataba....
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The Larger Ryoba had some writing on the soft steel handle but it was covered when I attached the handle. All the info I have is from the title of the ebay ad (link is now dead) "New/Old Japanese Saw/Anahiki Ryoba nokogiri by Nakaya Soun 300mm"

All of these saws were sharp when new, the kataba seems to hold the best edge as it shows minimal wear even though I use it to rip my stock. Im just wondering if these are worth sending out to be sharpened or if I should just spend the money on New saws. And yes I do have multiple dozuki saws in various pitches.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance!

[Luke Dupont]

I'm sure Stanley can provide better information and readings. I know nothing about saws and smiths, but I can make out the inscriptions to some degree:

Ryouba Face Side: Can't make this out. A better photo oriented vertically might help.
Ryouba Flip Side: 本自立 (The characters read, literally, "True/Origin, Self, Made/Stand". Not really sure what it means. I'm guessing it means "made by himself," referring to the name on the other side. I might be completely off though.)
Kataba: ？家金太郎 (A name: Something-Family Kintarou)

These are not throw-away saws, but are meant to be resharpened. You'll need a japanese feather-edge saw file. I'm guessing that they are decent quality, and I would learn to sharpen and set them myself; though I would expect that to be a bit trickier than with western saws. It may be a good idea to learn this process on some inexpensive western saws found at antique shops/flea markets first, and then research the process for Japanese saws specifically.

Setting the saws, especially the Ryouba, would probably be the most difficult part of this task. But, you can usually go a number of sharpenings before needing to modify the set, so that's probably not going to be an immediate concern.

[Stanley Covington]

The thing you need to know about saw signatures is that they are just that, a signature, and one that tends to get a little more stylized and difficult to read with each generation of blacksmith using the signature in the line.

I can't read the signature on the ryoba with any confidence. I think it begins with Nakaya 中屋、and contains the character shige 重. Nakaya is part of the signature of 60% or so of the saw blacksmiths in Japan. I can't see the two smaller characters to the right of the signature. Probably shouhyuo 商標 meaning "registered trademark."

The opposite side of the ryouba says honmetate 本目立て, meaning it has been given a professional sharpening, vs the typically cruder sharpening done by the blacksmith.

The kataba saw's signature is easier to read, but the first character is difficult. Luke has the "ie" "家" (meaning house or family) and "kintarou" parts correct. I think the first character is either 谷 "valley" read "tani," or it might be "mune" 宗 which is a little more classical. So "Taniya kintarou 谷家金太郎, or Muneie Kintarou　宗家金太郎.

Can't tell quality from these few pictures.

The kataba is a common carpenters saw sometimes called a saba or mackeral saw because of the shape. Good for rough work like concrete formwork. I'm not aware of any replaceable blade saws made in this shape, so they are about 30 years out of style.

The skinny ryouba is unusual in the Kanto area of Japan. I have seen them, but never owned or used one. Seems a bit pointless except for really shallow cuts such as fitting fusuma and shouji. I own a couple of crosscut kataba saws with similarly curved edges intended for making fusuma. Effective for gang cutting the internal latticework pieces.
If you like them, and use them, and they get the job done, then they are worth resharpening, IMO. There is sharpening, and then there is sharpening. A good metateshi (saw sharpener) will work the teeth. A great metateshi will true the plate as well, which is critical to really precise work. Probably none of these saws are used for precise work, but most saws can be improved by a good truing, especially since the plates tend to warp a bit over the years due to creep and residual stresses.

Sorry I was not more help.

Stan

[Luke Dupont]

The thing you need to know about saw signatures is that they are just that, a signature, and one that tends to get a little more stylized and difficult to read with each generation of blacksmith using the signature in the line.

I can't read the signature on the ryoba with any confidence. I think it begins with Nakaya 中屋、and contains the character shige 重. Nakaya is part of the signature of 60% or so of the saw blacksmiths in Japan. I can't see the two smaller characters to the right of the signature. Probably shouhyuo 商標 meaning "registered trademark."

The opposite side of the ryouba says honmetate 本目立て, meaning it has been given a professional sharpening, vs the typically cruder sharpening done by the blacksmith.

The kataba saw's signature is easier to read, but the first character is difficult. Luke has the "ie" "家" (meaning house or family) and "kintarou" parts correct. I think the first character is either 谷 "valley" read "tani," or it might be "mune" 宗 which is a little more classical. So "Taniya kintarou 谷家金太郎, or Muneie Kintarou　宗家金太郎.

Can't tell quality from these few pictures.

The kataba is a common carpenters saw sometimes called a saba or mackeral saw because of the shape. Good for rough work like concrete formwork. I'm not aware of any replaceable blade saws made in this shape, so they are about 30 years out of style.

The skinny ryouba is unusual in the Kanto area of Japan. I have seen them, but never owned or used one. Seems a bit pointless except for really shallow cuts such as fitting fusuma and shouji. I own a couple of crosscut kataba saws with similarly curved edges intended for making fusuma. Effective for gang cutting the internal latticework pieces.
If you like them, and use them, and they get the job done, then they are worth resharpening, IMO. There is sharpening, and then there is sharpening. A good metateshi (saw sharpener) will work the teeth. A great metateshi will true the plate as well, which is critical to really precise work. Probably none of these saws are used for precise work, but most saws can be improved by a good truing, especially since the plates tend to warp a bit over the years due to creep and residual stresses.

Sorry I was not more help.

Stan

Ahh, I see. There's some mark that makes 目 look like 自, so I was rather confused on that bit, not that I would have known what 本目立て referred to.
That first character just looks like alien script to me. I tried throwing the name into google with a wildcard for the first character, and "smith" / "ryouba" / "saw", etc, hoping to find the smith's name, but didn't come up with anything related.

I did come up with a bunch of hits for some cheesy-sounding izakaya called ごちそう家 金太郎, though. Heh.

[Stanley Covington]

Ahh, I see. There's some mark that makes 目 look like 自, so I was rather confused on that bit, not that I would have known what 本目立て referred to.
That first character just looks like alien script to me. I tried throwing the name into google with a wildcard for the first character, and "smith" / "ryouba" / "saw", etc, hoping to find the smith's name, but didn't come up with anything related.

I did come up with a bunch of hits for some cheesy-sounding izakaya called ごちそう家 金太郎, though. Heh.

Yea, 本目立てis pretty standard. You can also tell it was made with a steel stamp instead of a chisel.

I have my doubts about the first character too. My wife thinks it's ana穴、 but that makes no sense for a saw. Most likely 宗家。My google search yielded zip.

[nima hadavi]

WOW! thanks for all your help guys. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me understand.

Stanley, Interesting how you spoke of the skinny ryouba saw for fitting shouji and fusuma. How would this have been done? I have used the saw for rough cutting dadoes and odd shaped joinery found in timber framing. works quite well.

The larger ryouba is my go to saw for damn near everything. Cuts straight as an arrow with minimal effort. I do wish the set on the teeth was a bit different but that is preference.

The kataba, or saba as you pointed out, works excellent for cuts where planing and or a slick will create the precision. Also I have found it quite useful in re sawing boards (which I know is not the proper application).

I am looking to expand the collection, I would like to add an additional kataba and smaller fine cut ryouba, who are some smiths who are exemplary at crafting these? Any to stay away from? I have searched and searched but without knowing names and my Japanese being very poor, it is quite hard to find answers.

[Stanley Covington]

WOW! thanks for all your help guys. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me understand.

Stanley, Interesting how you spoke of the skinny ryouba saw for fitting shouji and fusuma. How would this have been done? I have used the saw for rough cutting dadoes and odd shaped joinery found in timber framing. works quite well.

The larger ryouba is my go to saw for damn near everything. Cuts straight as an arrow with minimal effort. I do wish the set on the teeth was a bit different but that is preference.

The kataba, or saba as you pointed out, works excellent for cuts where planing and or a slick will create the precision. Also I have found it quite useful in re sawing boards (which I know is not the proper application).

I am looking to expand the collection, I would like to add an additional kataba and smaller fine cut ryouba, who are some smiths who are exemplary at crafting these? Any to stay away from? I have searched and searched but without knowing names and my Japanese being very poor, it is quite hard to find answers.

The skinny kataba is limited, due to the shape of its plate, which is thinnest at the center, and set of teeth, to shallow cuts. In deeper cuts, the offside teeth will scratch and bind. The curved rip teeth as you have noticed, are ideal for cutting dadoes, such as for fusuma and shoji tracks. This is a shallow cut. The curved crosscut edge is useful for cutting the half lap joints in kumiko (lattice pieces), the curvature making it easier to start the cut and quickly reach the right depth in thicker fusuma kumiko. Shoji have finer exposed kumiko and so a dozuki saw is always used. But the rougher toothed curved saw is a standard saw for fusuma. A ryouba like this is unusual in my experience, but makes perfect sense.

Cutting the half lap joints is exactly the same as cutting a dado. The kumiko are clamped together, and gang marked and gang sawed. The waste can be popped out with a chisel fitted into the saw kerf after cutting the sides, and the bottoms cleaned with a chisel or dado plane.

I prefer kataba saws to ryouba for most applications, but nothing beats a ryouba for installation and fitting of doors and built-ins. The larger ones excell at cutting large joints in timbers. 240 is the most common size, but IMO is too big and aggressive for finer work while too small and slow for bigger work.

I have frequent dealings with Nakaya Takijiro, an excellent saw smith in Kawagoe and one of a handful of craftsmen that still forge saws by hand. His saws cut very very well, but they cost around $500 with a 6 month wait. For those that can appreciate a custom saw and need the added performance they provide, Takijiro's saws are precious.

I cannot give any advice on who to avoid, other than to suggest you consider how much you pay for a name. For collectors, the name is the value. For users, not so much.

Stan