Plane Order for Dimensioning Boards

[Jim Koepke]

So you use the chain saw to automate the block and tackle? Very creative Jim. What do the grandkids do?

No, the chainsaw is to make the trees small enough for us to pull by hand.

The kids help to run the rope and do some of the pulling. It was a bit of work, but we were kind of having fun. That is what matters.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Stanley,

I didn't think a scrub plane was necessary until I started working more rough sawn work. I converted a beat up in a high school shop class #5-1/4 and am now a convert to the benefits of a scrub plane.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

One thing often said no longer makes sense to me. (it used to make sense until I did the math on dollars spent)

That is the idea of buying a second blade for BD planes for different uses.

In my experience it is cheaper to find another #4 or #5 at a yard sale or where ever than it is to purchase a replacement blade.

I used to purchase extra blades with this in mind. I found it is just easier to have a second plane set up for the different use.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

Absolutely disagree. If one is doing all handwork (this is a forum about using handtools, remember), and one is starting with lumber that is not already S4S, and one values their time, then a scrub plane is an absolute necessity.

A jack will do the job of a scrub plane, but much slower and with more effort. Unless, of course, you are talking about a jack that has been setup as a scrub plane.... which makes it what?? Oh yea, a scrub plane.

Contrary to what Mr. Schwarz might suggest, if you are using an electric or hydraulic powered jointer and/or thickness planer in your shop to dimension lumber, or are using lumber previously planed and jointed by machine by others, then you are not dimensioning your lumber entirely by hand. Nothing wrong with that in the least, but it is counterproductive to tell newbies that don't own power planers and jointers that a scrub plane (or equivalent) is "absolutely not necessary" just because it is not necessary in your shop. Remember the context. Practice reading comprehension.

Let us first define what is a scrub and what is a jackplane fit for dimensioning wood.

A scrub is a very narrow and short plane with a severely cambered blade. My German scrub has a blade not quite 1.5" wide, 9" long and the blade has a 3" camber.
A jackplane is quite a bit longer and wider and with less severe camber. My English jack is 16" long 2 1/4" blade and about 10" camber.

What you are looking at here is the difference between typically German and English traditional woodworking. They both get the work done, both are effcient when used according to their tradition. I think my scrub is way too agressive for most dimensioning tasks and I only use it when thicknessing a good amount. I suppose the Germans would have used the scrub in a very light way most of the time. For the usual amount of removing sawmarks, twist, cup and bow I think the jack is plenty aggressive enough.

[Skip Helms]

I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone ask where you were going to get your lumber. At many places, it will already be dimensioned. At others, they'll run it through a planer for a few bucks extra along with a straight edge. In a purely manual shop, you'll need to bow-saw along a snapped chalk line to get your first rough dimension -- you can cheat and use a circular saw for that.

Back to the wood, it depends on how rough is rough. For planks that have been through a band or circular mill, I would (and have) started with a No.6 that has some camber to the iron. If it is figured wood, you might also add a slight back bevel to raise the effective angle of attack. BTW, two irons are cheaper than two planes -- but not by much.

Then I'd continue the process with a jack plane if I had one. If not, go to the #4 -- again with a little camber. I have another 4 that is dead straight across the edge but the corners are slightly rounded so it doesn't leave witness marks like a dado. Scrape the remaining lines.

If your wood is really rough, regrind your #5 as a scrubber and take off the high spots. You can't put a really large bow on the edge or else you can't back the frog off enough to fit the iron through the mouth without filing it -- not a crime but unrestorable to original. An old slick chisel can work well there too but those have collector value.

Something else I didn't see was how to even tell if you have it flat. Winding sticks and a good straightedge are a must. Your eyes will fool you. Maybe it's just me but I like a massive straightedge that will stay put without holding it. Here is a cheap solution for that: http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-o1-tool-steel/=13mudta That's O1 tool steel so when you are ready to make your own plane blades, you can lop 6" off the end.

If you are new to this, don't try to get the boards exact individually if you plan to glue them together for a table or bench. I've tended to thin an edge too much and can't get the mating board to lay down exactly where it's supposed to. Instead, joint the edges (the #6 will work for that) after you have done the rough dimensioning and assemble. Then finish leveling the entire surface. It makes it easier to pick which side you want up.

Last tip, if possible, have the grain runout all going in the same direction. It is a rotten feeling when you push a nice clean plane along one board and then hear the sccccchhhhh of planing the wrong way on the board next to it. Leveling a hand-planed surface with multiple boards I generally go with the grain for one pass, at a 45 degree angle across with the second, 45 the other way with the third and back to with the grain. Use the winding sticks after each pass and chalk or crayon the high spots. Good luck, sh

[Patrick Cox]

Thanksgiving for your reply. I bought these boards at a local hardwood dealer. And I did buy S4S on my 4/4 stock but 8/4 stock only comes rough. I don't know how it was cut but it was rough. Here is a picture of the wood ...

http://www.pcoxphoto.com/Web-Postings/n-8hBvS/i-DNGjFT9

Anyway, since I don't yet have my bench or my planes worked out I decided to pay Woodcraft to plane and joint the 8/4 board. But for future, how rough is this board on the right and what plane/blade would you start with?

And thanks for your other comments. All very helpful.

And BTW, the guy at the lumber yard didn't understand why I did not bring a circular saw! LOL!

Pat

I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone ask where you were going to get your lumber. At many places, it will already be dimensioned. At others, they'll run it through a planer for a few bucks extra along with a straight edge. In a purely manual shop, you'll need to bow-saw along a snapped chalk line to get your first rough dimension -- you can cheat and use a circular saw for that.

Back to the wood, it depends on how rough is rough. For planks that have been through a band or circular mill, I would (and have) started with a No.6 that has some camber to the iron. If it is figured wood, you might also add a slight back bevel to raise the effective angle of attack. BTW, two irons are cheaper than two planes -- but not by much.

Then I'd continue the process with a jack plane if I had one. If not, go to the #4 -- again with a little camber. I have another 4 that is dead straight across the edge but the corners are slightly rounded so it doesn't leave witness marks like a dado. Scrape the remaining lines.

If your wood is really rough, regrind your #5 as a scrubber and take off the high spots. You can't put a really large bow on the edge or else you can't back the frog off enough to fit the iron through the mouth without filing it -- not a crime but unrestorable to original. An old slick chisel can work well there too but those have collector value.

Something else I didn't see was how to even tell if you have it flat. Winding sticks and a good straightedge are a must. Your eyes will fool you. Maybe it's just me but I like a massive straightedge that will stay put without holding it. Here is a cheap solution for that: http://www.mcmaster.com/#grade-o1-tool-steel/=13mudta That's O1 tool steel so when you are ready to make your own plane blades, you can lop 6" off the end.

If you are new to this, don't try to get the boards exact individually if you plan to glue them together for a table or bench. I've tended to thin an edge too much and can't get the mating board to lay down exactly where it's supposed to. Instead, joint the edges (the #6 will work for that) after you have done the rough dimensioning and assemble. Then finish leveling the entire surface. It makes it easier to pick which side you want up.

Last tip, if possible, have the grain runout all going in the same direction. It is a rotten feeling when you push a nice clean plane along one board and then hear the sccccchhhhh of planing the wrong way on the board next to it. Leveling a hand-planed surface with multiple boards I generally go with the grain for one pass, at a 45 degree angle across with the second, 45 the other way with the third and back to with the grain. Use the winding sticks after each pass and chalk or crayon the high spots. Good luck, sh

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'll probably get flamed for this, but...

Are you often flamed? Your posts are generally very informative for me.....

IMO roughing is where going neander delivers the worst payoff. It isn't terribly skill-intensive, but it's the area where hand tools deliver the least incremental benefit in terms of results (power tools can do it just as well) and cost the most in terms of effort.

Bite your tongue... well, just a little bit anyway.

It may not take much skill, but I find that I have struggled with getting a nice flat surface using just my hand planes. I do some things well but sadly, this is not one of them. If you lived closer (and if I had more time), I would show up with some sort of bribe and ask for lessons. I have certainly been known to knock down the most serious high spots using a scrub plane before I use my sled to joint one face in my surface planer (since I don't own a powered jointer).

I will also admit that it has been a long time (years) since I did try to do one by hand so perhaps my skills have improved. I was very new to this and was probably working on my one of my first projects. I vaguely remember that I had some pretty deep grooves left from my scrub plane so I was having trouble finding a balance between puling a workable shaving and taking off enough to get to the bottom of the groove that I had created. In retrospect, I probably needed to take a shallower cut with the scrub (or something). If my memory is correct, I think that I spent a week of evenings surfacing a single board. That was probably 10 years ago.

One think I should have said in my previous reply: I have a scrub, but I more often use a jack for roughing. IMO the scrub is a luxury item, not a core necessity.

Mr. Chase expands on this in his next response. I purchased a scrub because i thought that I had to have one and I got a good deal on one used here on the creek. I find that I really like it when I knock off high spots, but if I had a properly cambered blade in one of my #5 planes, it would likely do just as good of a job. The only advantages to the scrub is probably that the blade is very narrow and the throat is completely open. This makes it easy to cut deep thick shavings. The disadvantage is that it is easy to take deep thick shavings.

[Sean Hughto]

Your reply is a perfect example of what happens so often on forums. I have no doubt everything you say is true in your own experience. However, your experience is not representative of everyone else's. Your generalizations are an overreach. You don't take into account every activity folks may be doing, every goal, every method of work.

Many people who work huge slabs, for example, will find scrubs a necessity as anything else is way too slow.

Many will ill also notice qualitative differences in the details of a piece prepared with planes as opposed to sanders etc.

Others will find the pace and process of handwork allows time and opportunity for small decisions and adjustments as the process proceeds that are not possible when running a stick through a machine.

Etc.

[Stanley Covington]

Let us first define what is a scrub and what is a jackplane fit for dimensioning wood.

A scrub is a very narrow and short plane with a severely cambered blade. My German scrub has a blade not quite 1.5" wide, 9" long and the blade has a 3" camber.
A jackplane is quite a bit longer and wider and with less severe camber. My English jack is 16" long 2 1/4" blade and about 10" camber.

What you are looking at here is the difference between typically German and English traditional woodworking. They both get the work done, both are effcient when used according to their tradition. I think my scrub is way too agressive for most dimensioning tasks and I only use it when thicknessing a good amount. I suppose the Germans would have used the scrub in a very light way most of the time. For the usual amount of removing sawmarks, twist, cup and bow I think the jack is plenty aggressive enough.

You make my point for me, Kees. The term "scrub plane" indicates differing planes in differing locations and differing times. The scrub plane with the narrow thick blade sold by LN nowadays, for instance, was not called a scrub plane back when it was first retailed. Indeed, it was speciality plane for working the edges of doors and windows.

In the American tradition, as I understand it, and before the advent of steel bodies, a carpenter used a finish plane, jack, or jointer plane until the mouth became too wide for fine work, then opened up the mouth wider, put a big camber on the blade, and used it for the initial rough dimensioning of lumber. This work was called "scrubbing," and the plane used, regardless of length or width, he called his "scrub plane."

I was taught by my father to use a Stanley jack plane set up as a scrub plane. I have known others that used No. 4's. It matters not.

The key point is that, at least in my experience, there are times when doing handwork, when a planer is not available or practical, and a scrub plane is the best tool for the job. I like my LN scrub plane, but my old Stanley jack/scrub plane works almost as well.

The Japanese typically use a shorter plane for this job with a 45~50mm wide blade. It is not called a scrub plane, but an "Arashiko," mean "rough finishing" plane. The same plane, but with narrower mouth and less camber, is also used for many other planing tasks. Tomato tomato, potato potatoe.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Thanks. And yes, I am signed up for that class. The problem is I have to wait another 6 weeks!

Why must you wait 6 weeks? You mean for the class? or is it because you have insufficient planes? I assume the former!

[Kees Heiden]

That's why I started defining what I always understood to be the difference between a scrub and a jackplane. It so easy to misunderstand each other when you use the same name for two different things. And the German wooden Schruphobel isquite another beast then an old smoother with a wide open mouth and a cambered iron.

[Stanley Covington]

That's why I started defining what I always understood to be the difference between a scrub and a jackplane. It so easy to misunderstand each other when you use the same name for two different things. And the German wooden Schruphobel isquite another beast then an old smoother with a wide open mouth and a cambered iron.

Please tell us about the German wooden Schruphobel.

[Kees Heiden]

Sure, but later.

[Mike Cherry]

FWIW, I bought a scrub when I first got into the craft. It sat unused on my shelf for 95% of its life. I sold it. If you use rough lumber alot I could see its uses, but I use mostly S2S and once you learn how to efficiently flatten a board you will realize that you dont need a scrub. The only time I can see needing one, is when you are reducing a boards width. It can do that in record time compared to most planes.

[James Pallas]

IMO for someone new you first need to learn to judge the material and not the plane you need. I have seen lumber come from the mill that can be cleaned up with a rank set smoother to material that you need a broad axe. If you only need to clean up a board lightly and you take a scrub plane (no mater what kind) you will just make a lot of work for yourself. Start with winding sticks and straight edges marker and take off only what you need to on the first face. Thicknessing is a whole different operation. Someone new may get the idea that you need to scrub the whole face to start out instead of just the high spots, lots of work and time.
Jim