Ultra fine ceramic stone produces sharper edge than 6000 grit water stone

[george wilson]

Thanks for educating me about D2 steel,Patrick.

[Patrick Chase]

BG42 is a VAR steel so that does shrink the carbides if I understand correctly.

Heh, I didn't realize that BG42 was VAR. That would indeed allow for a more refined grain structure, though not as much as PM. At 1% V the really problematic carbides are probably pretty small to begin with, though.

It would appear that you had highly developed metallurgical tastes as a teenager. I didn't learn most of this stuff until I had to to pass exams...

[Brian Holcombe]

I was really into a knife forum, I forget which one currently but there were a bunch of blade smiths and so along with that comes the interest in exotic steels and of course with exotic steel comes interest in that which cuts it. I liked to look up the charts and was interested in seeing the real life effect of certain materials. I actually bought a length of M3 as well but never used it.

It was also a stroke of luck that one of the guys was really into heat treating and so he had proper method down pat for all of these steels some of whom really consume energy to heat treat.

[Patrick Chase]

Sounds like traditional W1 and 01 tool steel will be a thing of the past, as will natural honing stones.

That's what happens when hand tool manufacturers target the demands of a lowly skilled user.

All in the name of progress. That's sad to hear.

Yeah, just like it was sad when cars replaced horse-drawn wagons or when people starting flying across oceans instead of taking week-long passages on ships.

So very, very sad.

Sarcasm aside, all that's changed is that we now have the option of modern longer-wearing steels. HCS isn't going anywhere, so the luddites among us can sleep easily.

[george wilson]

How many things have you made with these steels,Patrick?

[Patrick Chase]

Which we are increasingly seeing in woodworking tools Stewie. PM-V11 is a harbinger. Knives are the most basic of tools and often lead the way. The chair tools I have that are made in Sweden are forged from "ball bearing" steel and other "special" steels. US, Japanese, Sweedish, Austrian... companies are making more and more small batches of custom metals to compete. Before long we may not know what is in many of the steels we use.

You know that you can easily determine the alloy content of a steel, right? The only reason somebody would not know the composition of a steel is if they don't really want to.

In any case there is enough of a "tradition-oriented segment" in the US market that I doubt HCS will go away within the foreseeable future. We'll probably continue to hear more and more about new-fangled alloy steels, but other than that nothing changes.

[Patrick Chase]

How many things have you made with these steels,Patrick?

None. O1 is the most difficult steel I've used to make stuff, and that will probably continue to be the case. I don't see how that's relevant to what I would choose to use in my tools though.

[george wilson]

Patrick,if D2 is a steel made with soft ingredients,I found an Arkansas stone completely unable to sharpen a knife I made from it. Ceramics sharpened the knife readily. D2 is made for shearing other steels.

It is one thing to cite the qualities of tool steels on paper,and another to have experience in making things from them. Just as it is good to have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE as a woodworker.

Stewie,it is true that W1 steel is becoming harder to get,as it is made by fewer companies. Were it not for the demands of knife makers,W1 might be totally out of production. 01,on the other hand,remains a very common place tool steel. It is less treacherous than W1 when quenching,yet is still a tool steel that can warp,crack,and distort easily. The air hardening steels such as A2 are a lot safer to make expensive dies from.

[Patrick Chase]

Alloy steels are mostly used to make life easier for the smith, not for the end user..

I agree with almost everything you wrote except this part, which frankly defies logical reasoning (with the exception of some specific cases).

Let's take PM-V11 as an example: From a manufacturability perspective it's fairly similar D2, but adds a nontrivial amount of cost due to relatively exotic processing. If they're just doing it to aid manufacturing, then why on Earth would LV choose to use that instead of its non-PM cousin? The answer is of course that they did it for sharpenability (relative to D2) and edge life (relative to O1/A2/etc), and those are both to make life easier for the end-user.

What you say *is* true some specific cases, for example between W1 and O1. O1 adds a small amount of alloy in exchange for better stability during heat treatment.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,if D2 is a steel made with soft ingredients,I found an Arkansas stone completely unable to sharpen a knife I made from it. Ceramics sharpened the knife readily. D2 is made for shearing other steels..

It's a continuum, obviously.

As I said in #54, Arks can't sharpen D2, because Chromium carbide is harder than SiO4. Chromium carbide is softer than aluminum oxide, alumina ceramic, silicon carbide, etc, which means that most modern synthetic stones can handle it. Vanadium carbides OTOH are harder than any of those media, which means that they can't handle high-V steels.

Lots of steels are used for working other steels. All that confirms is that D2 is more durable than *some* other steels, which nobody has questioned. I stand by my admittedly hyperbolic statement that it's "butter soft" compared to high-Vanadium steels.

[george wilson]

Once again,actual experience counts for a lot more than just paper knowledge. Or possibly Googling for data. The powdered metal that LV uses not only sharpens more easily,but retains that edge better than D2,as I have mentioned in the past here.

[Patrick Chase]

Once again,actual experience counts for a lot more than just paper knowledge. Or possibly Googling for data. The powdered metal that LV uses not only sharpens more easily,but retains that edge better than D2,as I have mentioned in the past here.

How does that contradict ANYTHING I've said?

Both of your observations (sharpens more easily, retains an edge better) are perfectly consistent with a steel with broadly similar composition to D2, but with PM processing. Smaller carbides help in both respects.

EDIT: Ah, I see. You're nit-picking because I left D2 off the list of alloys over which PM-V11 "improves edge life". My omission, though I thought it was blindingly obvious in light of our previous discussions about D2, large carbides, and chipping.

[george wilson]

Patrick,I am not going to engage in a further argument with you after I have had half a century in woodworking and in tool making.

Thee are many pitfalls that show up when you actually begin using different tool steel alloys These require experience and developed judgements to deal with successfully. Cracking,warping,changes in dimension and other problems are things that you might find out about that go beyond just "selecting steels" based on their paper properties. These affect the design of tooling as well as other decisions that only experience can give to the operator.

[James Waldron]

Now, boys, remember, there are ladies present!

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with almost everything you wrote except this part, which frankly defies logical reasoning (with the exception of some specific cases).

Let's take PM-V11 as an example: From a manufacturability perspective it's fairly similar D2, but adds a nontrivial amount of cost due to relatively exotic processing. If they're just doing it to aid manufacturing, then why on Earth would LV choose to use that instead of its non-PM cousin? The answer is of course that they did it for sharpenability (relative to D2) and edge life (relative to O1/A2/etc), and those are both to make life easier for the end-user.

What you say *is* true some specific cases, for example between W1 and O1. O1 adds a small amount of alloy in exchange for better stability during heat treatment.

I should have been more specific. Light alloys, like Hitachi blue steel 2, have a much larger workable temperature range and so they can be worked by the smith's apprentices with a few years of experience, where as very pure and high carbon steels like Hitachi white steel 1 have a very narrow range to work in and also need fairly specific temperatures for heat treating. It is my understanding that this is not easy to do, especially when you add in considerations like cold forging and utilizing pine charcoal.

W1 and O1 are a perfect example.