Setting up New Basement Shop - Need Layout Ideas

[John K Jordan]

Point taken.

On your comment regarding the use of 8" before the first branch fitting, does this limit me to using metal ducting? I don't think I've seen 8" PVC sewer pipe, and Sch40 would be pretty expensive. The PVC had some appeal due to ease of assembly and availability.

I'm planning on buying the dust collector and table saw at approximately the same time. Everything else will come as projects require it.

- Right now, I'm looking at the G0691 Grizzly saw.

Duncan

I've never seen it done, but if needed would it work to build a input duct from plywood if you want a larger cross section, maybe painted slick inside? The ClearVue has a rectangular input with a connector supplied to fit to a 6" duct. Seems like you could just build an extension of this rectangular section and use the same connector at the end. You could easily cut and bend and/or glue plastic to make a rectangular duct. Maybe a DC expert could comment.

You can also cut the thin wall PVC SD pipe and easily heat and bend and glue it to make any size or kind of fitting or wye you need. I think Pentz describes this. I like to make connections with self-tapping pan head screws. I've cut pieces 6" SD pipe and spread or squished it to make rings and connectors as needed.

I personally used 6" SD everywhere except right at some machines and the DC has amazing performance, at least, it impresses me. I installed a 5hp ClearVue and have zero regrets.

JKJ

[Duncan Ellis]

Two of these vendors are dust collection specialists...

Called Oneida, and their first suggestion was a 5HP Super Dust Gorilla. They were concerned that a 3HP might not be sufficient given the run length and number of corners that might be required. They'd use an 8" duct, that tapers down to a 6" as it gets further away from the collector.

Duncan

[Jim Becker]

Called Oneida, and their first suggestion was a 5HP Super Dust Gorilla. They were concerned that a 3HP might not be sufficient given the run length and number of corners that might be required. They'd use an 8" duct, that tapers down to a 6" as it gets further away from the collector.

Duncan

That would be similar to my setup...it's a older 2hp, but the inlet is 7" and that's what I run to the first branch. I didn't mind that at all since I have a preference for metal duct and that's what's required for the "odd" number sizes. You "can" get 8" in plastic, although you'll likely need to hit up an irrigation supply or something like that, not the home centers. My duct design is tapered, but for simplicity, I would have kept it at 6" for a bit longer today for more flexibility and convenience. I only have a small number of 4" drops; the rest are primarily 5" with the exception of 6" down to the jointer/planer that reduces to 5" flex to 120mm at the hood.

[Duncan Ellis]

I've attached an updated picture of the shop layout, that shows a rough approximation of the crawl space and possible garage location for the dust collector. I verified there's enough height in the foundation wall to run the duct work from the garage into the crawl space. I also added the location of the HVAC runs and the beam. (Looks better in the 3D, should probably make it translucent for the top down views)

Duncan

WorkshopandGarage.jpg

[Andy Giddings]

Looks a tad empty now. Duncan. Need to get some more tools in there

[mark mcfarlane]

.... I also added the location of the HVAC runs ...

Duncan, It wasn't clear to me if you are sharing HVAC with the rest of your house, but if you are, some finishing tasks will stink up the rest of the house. Something to consider.

I'm going to install a variable speed Mitsubishi mini-split that can cycle down as low as 2800 BTUs and is rated somewhere around 32 SEER. That means I get very efficient cooling and humidity control in the spring and fall, which is important in Texas. I don't need much heat, and electricity is pretty cheap in Texas compared to, e.g. the North East USA.

Traditional two-stage ACs don't work well as dehumidifiers when the ambient temp is in the 70s or 80s. They cycle on and off too quickly to start dehumidifying. The Mitsubishi will run 24/7 but with very low power consumption on the nice days.

If you are in a cool, dry climate its probably not an issue.

[Duncan Ellis]

Looks a tad empty now. Duncan. Need to get some more tools in there

Always nice to have room to grow.

Duncan, It wasn't clear to me if you are sharing HVAC with the rest of your house, but if you are, some finishing tasks will stink up the rest of the house. Something to consider.

I'm going to install a variable speed Mitsubishi mini-split that can cycle down as low as 2800 BTUs and is rated somewhere around 32 SEER. That means I get very efficient cooling and humidity control in the spring and fall, which is important in Texas. I don't need much heat, and electricity is pretty cheap in Texas compared to, e.g. the North East USA.

Traditional two-stage ACs don't work well as dehumidifiers when the ambient temp is in the 70s or 80s. They cycle on and off too quickly to start dehumidifying. The Mitsubishi will run 24/7 but with very low power consumption on the nice days.

If you are in a cool, dry climate its probably not an issue.

There's no HVAC duct in the workshop, it's just through ducting. I'll probably do the majority of finishing in my garage, which because of my autowork, is better setup for paint with an exhaust fan, large air compressor, and dryer.

Duncan

[Greg Parrish]

Like Mark, I'm in a high humidity area in North Florida. I have my garage insulated with a Mitsubishi mini split in my garage. Mine is the 18K BTU model and it works great in my 22x20 garage. It can freeze you out in the summer and keeps it warm in the winter if needed (which isn't much in FL). Mine has a dehumidifier function on it, but I don't use it as I have a separate dehumidifier running full time with a drain line plumbed to outside using pex tubing. My mitsubishi has been going strong and running non-stop for the past 5+ years. It supposedly only uses about as much power as a home computer I'm told. I had to have coolant added to it this past week as the first issue it's ever had and the only reason they indicated it needed it was from years of having it serviced twice a year, the coolant level had dropped about 1 to 2 ounces when the gauges were attached each time. Otherwise, it's been great and it keeps the air separate from the house.

Duncan, It wasn't clear to me if you are sharing HVAC with the rest of your house, but if you are, some finishing tasks will stink up the rest of the house. Something to consider.

I'm going to install a variable speed Mitsubishi mini-split that can cycle down as low as 2800 BTUs and is rated somewhere around 32 SEER. That means I get very efficient cooling and humidity control in the spring and fall, which is important in Texas. I don't need much heat, and electricity is pretty cheap in Texas compared to, e.g. the North East USA.

Traditional two-stage ACs don't work well as dehumidifiers when the ambient temp is in the 70s or 80s. They cycle on and off too quickly to start dehumidifying. The Mitsubishi will run 24/7 but with very low power consumption on the nice days.

If you are in a cool, dry climate its probably not an issue.

[mark mcfarlane]

Like Mark, I'm in a high humidity area in North Florida. I have my garage insulated with a Mitsubishi mini split in my garage. Mine is the 18K BTU model and it works great in my 22x20 garage. It can freeze you out in the summer and keeps it warm in the winter if needed (which isn't much in FL). ...

Greg, how did you size your Mitsubishi, using Manual J or square footage/tonnage? My shop is going to be about 30*34 and I'm thinking 12,000 BTUs is going to be enough given no west-facing windows,... If you can 'freeze out' in the summer you may be oversized, which is what the typical square footage calculations do, and then the system won't dehumidy as well (which you have covered separately)

Also, do you know the model number?

I'm still waiting on my builder to approve the HVAC company I am recommending so they can repeat the Manual J calcs for me. My builder has never used mini-splits and I want to use a factory trained installer.

[Greg Parrish]

Greg, how did you size your Mitsubishi, using Manual J or square footage/tonnage? My shop is going to be about 30*34 and I'm thinking 12,000 BTUs is going to be enough given no west-facing windows,... If you can 'freeze out' in the summer you may be oversized, which is what the typical square footage calculations do, and then the system won't dehumidy as well (which you have covered separately)

Also, do you know the model number?

I'm still waiting on my builder to approve the HVAC company I am recommending so they can repeat the Manual J calcs for me. My builder has never used mini-splits and I want to use a factory trained installer.

My HVAC people did the calc's. Based on my space though, 22x20 they calculated that the 9k btu unit was plenty. I argued and argued with them about it being too small but they said it was no problem. My reasoning was that even though it was insulated, it was still a garage and sure enough the 9k btu was not adequate for the space any time you opened a door. My requirements might be different than yours but if you have a large roll up, garage door or even double french doors that will be open the exact calcs for a house may not give the unit enough oomph to recover from taking a wall out momentarily. Anyway, they installed the 9k unit that they insisted was big enough per their calc's and ended up having to come back at their expense 1 week later and replace it with the 18k unit. I just paid the difference in unit costs.

I will say that my model when put on dehumidifier option doesn't dry like a normal dehumidifier. My actual dehumidifier puts out heat while drying and it does an excellent job of drying the room. It's just a small frigidaire unit from lowes/H.D. but has ability to plumb to a garden hose which I converted to PEX and ran outside with a drain line. The Mitsubishi unit I have cools the room in dehumidifier mode. When I switch it to dehumidifier mode it doesn't give a temp setting any more and instead it runs non-stop. I think it just sets the temp to the lowest setting but I really don't know.

I know my 18k is oversized for the space but I am running the separate dehumidifier so I didn't care. I wanted it to be able to maintain cool or heat regardless of outside temp and to be able to recover from having the large door open within an hour or less.

MINE SAYS ITS MODEL NUMBER MSZ-GE24NA

Mark, one more thought regarding your comments. You may be okay at 12k btu as My large garage door is facing due west and gets all of the afternoon sun. It is my weakest link in my insulation plan too. I had 52 holes drilled and low expanding insulation foam pumped into my walls. The insulation company also blew insulation in over the ceiling to the same level as my house and I had them install fi-foil radiant barrier in the rafters like my house. Lastly I had a garage door company come install styrofoam panel inserts into the garage door but that was all I could do since I needed to keep the door usable.


Hope some of this helps.

[mark mcfarlane]

My HVAC people did the calc's. Based on my space though, ...Hope some of this helps.

Thanks Greg, that was helpful.

The 'old school' way of calculating AC and heat load was rules-of-thumb based on region and square footage.

Modern building science dictates use of something like the Manual J calculation which takes into account the thermal characteristics of every wall, floor, ceiling, door and window, the geographic location, orientation of structure to the sun, tree shade, envelope tightness, duct leakage, lights and appliances and the amount of heat and humidity generated by people in the house (body heat, showering,....)

There are various Manual J calculators available online, some more sophisticated than others.

Today it can be hard to find someone in HVAC that understands building science and Manual J, but it can be a way to qualify an HVAC company. 20 years from now it will hopefully be the norm in the USA. I think most of the recent building science advances started in Europe due to the much higher energy costs. Most new US homes seem built to a purchase price rather than the 30 year operational cost. Europeans seem to have better memories and longer attention spans.

I will have a 1-car roll up insulated door in the new shop, but it faces NW so it will just get glancing afternoon sun and shouldn't turn into a radiator like a west facing garage.

The use of foil and the like in the rafters is an interesting topic. There is still a lot of debate about what really works and what doesn't work in an unconditioned attic space in a hot, humid climate. Some of the recent research I have read essentially says 'let it be hot, seal and insulate the ceiling well, and allow for adequate airflow' and forget all the fancy stuff. Mini-Splits change the equation since you don't have ductwork in the unconditioned space (unless you use a cassette system with ducting). Based on my study over the past few years (prepping for the shop build), it seems like most of the published material is for heating (northern) zones and there is a lot of disagreement and work still to do for hot, humid regions.

A final note, one of the dilemmas of using a room dehumidifier inside the conditioned space of your building is the heat generation by the dehumidifier. That's one of the reasons I want to use a continuously variable speed speed mini-split. We'll see how well it really works at dehumidifying. Not all mini-splits are the same, even from the same manufacturer.

I'm probably going to add a whole house dehumidifier for the rest of the house and a HEPA filtration system (we will be living in a pine forest and the wife has bad allergies). Most people feel more comfortable in a dryer home a few degrees warmer than a cooler, damper home, so one can theoretically turn up the AC temp 3-4 degrees higher with good dehumidification during peak cooling season, and in the summer and fall you can run the dehumidifier instead of the AC, at a substantial savings. That's the theory, anyway. Since my paycheck permanently ends in 2 months I'm looking at long term costs. If I die young my kids get a lower inheritance and someone will get a great deal on an energy efficient home.

Sorry for the off-track distraction, I've been submersed in 'building stuff' for the past year. Still hoping to break ground in October.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks Greg, that was helpful.

A final note, one of the dilemmas of using a room dehumidifier inside the conditioned space of your building is the heat generation by the dehumidifier. That's one of the reasons I want to use a continuously variable speed speed mini-split. We'll see how well it really works at dehumidifying. Not all mini-splits are the same, even from the same manufacturer.

I'm probably going to add a whole house dehumidifier for the rest of the house and a HEPA filtration system (we will be living in a pine forest and the wife has bad allergies). Most people feel more comfortable in a dryer home a few degrees warmer than a cooler, damper home, so one can theoretically turn up the AC temp 3-4 degrees higher with good dehumidification during peak cooling season, and in the summer and fall you can run the dehumidifier instead of the AC, at a substantial savings. That's the theory, anyway.

We lived in a condo in South Florida for a while and it had a dehumidifier module of some sort installed with the HVAC. I remember there was a separate control for it and the system had an away mode for "snow birds" that left the condo for the summer to return north. If I remember correctly, the away mode did just what you say and raised the temp but ran the dehumidifier more. Regardless, good luck and sorry to have gotten off topic too.

[Greg Parrish]

I've attached an updated picture of the shop layout, that shows a rough approximation of the crawl space and possible garage location for the dust collector. I verified there's enough height in the foundation wall to run the duct work from the garage into the crawl space. I also added the location of the HVAC runs and the beam. (Looks better in the 3D, should probably make it translucent for the top down views)

Duncan

WorkshopandGarage.jpg

I like the idea of moving the DC across the crawl space. Especially if it doesn't involve much or any vertical elevation change. I'm jealous of the space you have too. I'm sure Oneida can provide you a plan if you give them the measurements to include not only what size model is recommended but also what piping to use. They have that service available. Good luck on it and keep posting as you develop it further.

[Duncan Ellis]

3HP Super Dust Gorilla is now on order. Cleaned out the garage wall to make some room and have identified a rental source for an 8" core drill rig.
Plan to spend some time this weekend cleaning out the basement shop while it's mostly empty.

I'll take some pictures of the progress.

Duncan

[Greg Parrish]

3HP Super Dust Gorilla is now on order. Cleaned out the garage wall to make some room and have identified a rental source for an 8" core drill rig.
Plan to spend some time this weekend cleaning out the basement shop while it's mostly empty.

I'll take some pictures of the progress.

Duncan

Awesome. Should work out great. In looking at that model over the V3000 I'm not sure what all the differences are other than the metal cyclone, which I do like, but the other difference I see is a Baldor motor versus the Leeson that mine came with. Personal preference as both are USA made but I'd prefer the Baldor if they had given me a choice.

PS - Get ready for a ton of boxes to show up. LOL Mine came in at least a dozen boxes I think.