SawStop vs Bosch ruling

[Ben Rivel]

You're correct on the 10" blade size. I must have been thinking it was 12".

For giggles, I just went onto SS's site and priced out an Industrial model with 52" rip capacity, sliding table, and 5hp/1-phase motor. This is as close as I can get a cabinet saw to a US-spec Minimax SC2 Classic sliding table saw. According to their site, an SS so configured is priced at $5,398, which does not include any extra carrtridges. The cartridges are $70 each, so we are basically looking at almost $5,500. That is in the same ballpark that I sell SC2 Classics at. So, you have a cabinet saw that does have a blade brake but does not have a true sliding table, a 4" cutting height, or a scoring blade and it costs what a real Euro slider does.

Continuing on that line of thought, a new Powermatic 66 (we can all agree, the benchmark of American-style cabinet saws) is about $3K with the 5hp motor. It does not have a sliding table option but the SS' sliding table option is $1K, but an SS equally equipped to the PM66 is still $4,300: $1,300 more expensive. Now, I'm not debating the merit of the braking technology or telling anyone what to buy but what I am saying is that for guys who can work safely (I have many, many customers who worked on PM66's for years and still have all their fingers, including my dad..), they don't need necessarily to pay an extra 30% to accomplish the same tasks and for customers who have the money, you can get a real slider, that not only is inherently safer than any regular cabinet saw but also cuts more accurately, for about the same price. Just some food for thought.

Erik

Urgh... I hate reading that argument. Most consumers are not going with 5HP saws. Try comparing the 3HP versions for one, and for two is the PM66 even still being made?! Its the PM2000 now that would be the comparable model.

Powermatic PM2000 3HP 50" - $3059.99 LINK
SawStop PCS 3HP 52" - $3249.00 LINK

Between those two I cant understand who wouldn't go with the SawStop.

Now the only clearly cheaper route I looked into when I was shopping was the following:

Delta Unisaw 3HP 52" - $2649.00 LINK

But I had read so many bad things about Delta's customer service lately that I decided that one was out of the picture.

Then there is of course Grizzly, but yea...

[Van Huskey]

Urgh... I hate reading that argument. Most consumers are not going with 5HP saws. Try comparing the 3HP versions for one, and for two is the PM66 even still being made?! Its the PM2000 now that would be the comparable model.

Powermatic PM2000 3HP 50" - $3059.99 LINK
SawStop PCS 3HP 52" - $3249.00 LINK

Between those two I cant understand who wouldn't go with the SawStop.

Now the only clearly cheaper route I looked into when I was shopping was the following:

Delta Unisaw 3HP 52" - $2649.00 LINK

But I had read so many bad things about Delta's customer service lately that I decided that one was out of the picture.

Then there is of course Grizzly, but yea...

The problem one has is even negating the safety aspects of the SS comparing it to the PM line tends to be apples and oranges.

The PM2000 is indeed the evolution of the PM66 but it is a much heavier and bigger saw than the PCS, it most closely compares to the ICS. The PM3000 is in another category above the ICS. The PM2000 3hp 50" w/casters is a $2900 (out the door shipped) saw unless one chooses to pay more and the PCS 3 hp 52" (professional T-Glide) is a $3000 saw (plus $250 shipping) w/o casters so $3550 as similar as one can get them but it still isn't the PM2000's equal (safety not factored in). So PCS to PM2000 (if you need casters) is about $650 difference. The ICS (which I view to be more comparable to the PM2000) in 3hp/52" is $4250 without casters.

In the end the difference depends on what one values and which saws one compares. To some the over $1500 difference between the PM2000 and ICS is negligible for others it is huge. For some the electronics aspects and the limits on certain types of usage (rare as they may be) along with the potential increase in operation cost through accidental firings with regard to the SS makes it less desirable. For some the "insurance" of the SS is a bargain.

I have no issue with SS, if one avoids companies who do business as SS does they wouldn't have a computer, phone, TV, car etc and I am not willing to do that nor do I see any reason to be a hypocrite and single out SS. I bought a PM2000 instead of an ICS (I did not consider the PCS) mainly due to the uber-deal I got on one with a factory US Baldor motor (sold off when Woodwerks in Ohio suspended building the custom PM2066 saws) at roughly half the price of a ICS at the time. Were I buying today I would buy a 5hp ICS (as I still have not wrapped my head around a slider for my work process) and be done with it but I am 100% happy with my PM2000, the PM3000 doesn't really come into my equation since I don;t need a 14" saw and it is the price of an ICS. I think the PCS makes perfect sense for most serious hobby woodworkers but I just prefer the PM2000.

It is interesting to watch the ebb and flow of this suit but is it a long way from over and could go either way BUT I would not want to be sitting on a Bosch saw at the moment with the potential to have a unsupported saw.

[Larry Edgerton]

After Gass got turned down by the big boys, then and only then he petitioned the CPSC to require his invention to be on all new saws sold in the US. In fact, he was concerned about his rejection and making money just like the big boys. Art's interpretation isn't a misunderstanding, it just a different point of view with which I happen to agree. In fact, before Gass ever manufactured the saw and sold one here, I argued with Gass here at the Creek. His argument was disingenuous. If he'd applied to the CPSC before presenting his product to the Big Boys, I'd have to agreed with Gass's arguments. Gass is a patent attorney and his concern is more about his financial gain than consumer safety.

His products appear to be of a good quality but like Art, I will never buy one. I hope Bosch develops a cabinet saw. It's a short drive to Canada.

As a business owner I had concerns of not only having to replace my saws with something inferior to be able to have employees in the shop but also the precedent that was being set. This was widely reported in the trade mags, interpreted by lawyers, and it could easily have wreaked havoc on the small businesses. Once the precedent was set what is to stop other forced buys? Shaper Stop? Jointer Stop?

Or my favorite, Bandsaw Stop, AKA, BS.

Van, you have some splain'in to do........

[Peter Kelly]

The problem one has is even negating the safety aspects of the SS comparing it to the PM line tends to be apples and oranges. The PM2000 is indeed the evolution of the PM66 but it is a much heavier and bigger saw than the PCS, it most closely compares to the ICS. The PM3000 is in another category above the ICS. The PM2000 3hp 50" w/casters is a $2900 (out the door shipped) saw unless one chooses to pay more and the PCS 3 hp 52" (professional T-Glide) is a $3000 saw (plus $250 shipping) w/o casters so $3550 as similar as one can get them but it still isn't the PM2000's equal (safety not factored in). So PCS to PM2000 (if you need casters) is about $650 difference. The ICS (which I view to be more comparable to the PM2000) in 3hp/52" is $4250 without casters. In the end the difference depends on what one values and which saws one compares. To some the over $1500 difference between the PM2000 and ICS is negligible for others it is huge. For some the electronics aspects and the limits on certain types of usage (rare as they may be) along with the potential increase in operation cost through accidental firings with regard to the SS makes it less desirable. For some the "insurance" of the SS is a bargain. I have no issue with SS, if one avoids companies who do business as SS does they wouldn't have a computer, phone, TV, car etc and I am not willing to do that nor do I see any reason to be a hypocrite and single out SS. I bought a PM2000 instead of an ICS (I did not consider the PCS) mainly due to the uber-deal I got on one with a factory US Baldor motor (sold off when Woodwerks in Ohio suspended building the custom PM2066 saws) at roughly half the price of a ICS at the time. Were I buying today I would buy a 5hp ICS (as I still have not wrapped my head around a slider for my work process) and be done with it but I am 100% happy with my PM2000, the PM3000 doesn't really come into my equation since I don;t need a 14" saw and it is the price of an ICS. I think the PCS makes perfect sense for most serious hobby woodworkers but I just prefer the PM2000. It is interesting to watch the ebb and flow of this suit but is it a long way from over and could go either way BUT I would not want to be sitting on a Bosch saw at the moment with the potential to have a unsupported saw.

Back from the dead!

[Robert Parent]

Patents are wonderful in theory but that is about as far as it goes. In the end it is the guy with the most money to feed the legal system that usually wins. The key in today's business environment is to have a stream of new ideas and just run faster than the competition. Anyone developing new products understands this or they will usually fail in the market. One has to remember that several countries do not honor patents and just build and ship product. Patents are totally useless without the dollars to fight and protect them and most small companies just do not have the dollars. This perspective is from someone that designed new products for several decades. If Bosch or any company sees a big enough market a patent is not going to stop them from entering the market.

Robert

[Kevin Groenke]

Or my favorite, Bandsaw Stop, AKA, BS

SawStop had a bandsaw prototype around the time the first tablesaws come out. My recollection is that it sheared the blade in some way.

https://youtu.be/W3PLwNccpXU

Integration into more types of machines is why I would like to see SawStop license the detection aspect to other companies. Innovation is somewhat stymied at the moment with nobody coming up with an effective alternative. I would think if volume increased, as it would when incorporated into more types of tools, there could be more $ in licensing than in maintaining exclusiveivity. Of course then you would spend tons of money and time watching for license violations and infringement.

A ChopStop would be nice.

[Kurt Kintner]

AMEN...the guy is a completely greedy jerk from everything I've read about the history of the SS...as a fact my employer lost his manual to the jobsite version and SS charged him about $50 for a replacement...??? I think/hope if Bosch takes this to the end they will prevail...I just can't see how a concept such as an emergency brake on a table saw is patentable...

on the flip side, there is the concept of quantities of scale...e.g. if every saw had SS technology then the cost per unit would be way lower than it is now...if Gass was really concerned about worker safety then he would allow use at a reasonable price and then proceed to still market his products (which I have to admit are pretty darned good) and compete on a fair test of quality.

Sawstop manuals are a free download from their website .... Not $50 .....

[Patrick McCarthy]

Van is back!

Missed you, dude!

[mreza Salav]

Back from the dead!

Same thought!
Where have you been?!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Small businesses or large corporations have a right to make a profit and protect their patents. But to use the CPSC to monopolize a market and take away a choice from the consumer? Look at the timing. If the timing had changed it would be a more sincere argument. He's been in it from the beginning for the profit just like any other business large or small and he has engaged the CPSC in an attempt to monopolize the market in the name of public safety. If a large corporation did this, the same people defending Gass would be flaming the internet with attacks on large corporations.

When ever I read those "cut off you nose to spite your face/ cut off your fingers spite Steve Gass" comments I think some people are a little too self-righteous. At least the saw I buy should be my choice and not Steve Gass's.

Few things solicit more volatile comments that SS.



Few

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's good to see Van post again! I hope he makes it a habit again!

[Ole Anderson]

Wonder who has deeper pockets, Bosch or Sawstop?

[eugene thomas]

Sawstop 2 products..Bosch.. a whole lot. I hope bosch crushes him....

[David Kumm]

Van, good to hear from you and you are still spot on. The build of the saws themselves is seldom part of any discussion. My question is when anyone's technology will translate to the larger saws. I'm partial to old 14-18" saws but the technology seems stuck at 10". Dave

[Chris Fournier]

I've owned a made in Canada General 350 and now a MiniMax 410 Elite S combo. I have been woodworking in my own shop for 24 years. I have all ten fingers attached just the way my mother issued them to me.

Cabinet saws are an old platform for the TS. Only in North America have we clung to this machine, to the detriment of the woodworking equipment manufacturers I should add. The cabinet saw makes sense for your average hobbiest, site worker, and small shop for many reasons: space, affordability, and high utility. I wish that I still had my General 350 as a dedicated ripping machine, bevel rip cuts being much easier to do on my cabinet saw than my combo because I could move the fence to either side of the blade on the General.

Now my sliding table saw does everything else other than the bevel ripping far better than my old cabinet saw. Far better, with less set up, with better results (large sheet goods breakdown etc.), and with a significant margin of added safety over the cabinet saw.

I would never buy a Saw Stop because I have left the cabinet saw behind in my woodworking adventure. If I needed one again in the future I would simply buy a used General 350 for no more than $1500.00 CDN.

My life is full of potentially dangerous objects and activities and the premium that SS demands for a blade contact brake is not worth it to me. For others it clearly is and they are SS customers.

I think that it would be great if other companies could bring this sort of technology to our market, competition is good for the consumer.

And yes the way that the SS creator attempted and finally succeeded to bring his creation to the market galls me and I wouldn't reward him with a purchase.