Grizzly machines now made in China

[mark mcfarlane]

40 years ago everyone made fun of 'Made in Japan'. Then Toyota and Honda almost killed the American car industry with their much higher quality. I still won't buy an American made car. I've had so many problems over the decades and my Hondas typically just take oil and tires for the first 200,000 miles. I just sold a 26 year old Landcruiser that was running almost as good as the day it was purchased. Had to repair the AC, redo all the fluids, and replace some rubber that deteriorated from being parked in the sun all day, that's about it. Maybe I had a brake job done at 140,000 miles, I can't remember.

China has the capability to manufacture to the highest standards. No one complains that iPhones are made in China, or many other high end electronics products. All it takes is due diligence to monitor the process, the right contract controls,... You can make crap or first rate fantastic in China, its up to the company outsourcing the manufacturing.

All indications on this forum are that Grizzly stands behind what they sell. Obviously their $500 bandsaw won't work the same as a $3,000 Italian saw, but it will likely be as good or better than another $500 saw. They seem sell products that are a very good value for the money, with occasional lemons that the company will work to fix.

Grizzly seems to understand customer loyalty and the sometimes flakey Internet culture. The European and American machine companies seem mostly clueless by comparison.

[David Kumm]

When manufacturing is moved to another country it generally starts with the low end stuff and over time works up. US to Brazil, to Taiwan, to China for woodworking. Japan to Taiwan to Korea to China for metal working. Over time the quality and price move up within the country. I'd argue the real issue is that we as consumers are becoming so far removed from how things really work that we can no longer be a judge of quality. Without consumers demanding higher quality and knowing what to look and ask for, we get better paint jobs. Dave

[Shiraz Balolia]

As we would expect from the Internet, there are a lot of opinions, many good, and some, well...............rubbish!

Let's put some things to rest:

1) The G0490 series of parallelogram jointers was never made in Taiwan. We have carried that unit for almost 10 years and it was always made in China, under our supervision.

2) Over 70% of our machines are made in Taiwan and the production will not change. We have long term relationships with factories in Taiwan and I know all the owners personally, some of whom were small companies and are now public companies! Those relationships are precious for getting things done as well as for loyalty.

3) We have had an office in China for over 16 years with quality control inspectors as well as engineers that are on our payroll. One of them is a German (yes, originally from Germany) whom I have known since before I started Grizzly 33 years ago. He speaks Mandarin as well as about 8 other languages. We also send our engineers to oversee production from our USA headquarters several times a year. All that costs money, but it is imperative that we try to get it right the first time. This is not an easy business to be in, but we make it look easy with the various processes that we have developed and put in place through experience.

4) With any factory, be it China, Taiwan, or even USA, quality control during production is the key to success. If there are problems with a machine, it costs us money to deal with that problem, even if it is just a phone call from the customer. Therefore, we try to make sure that issues are minimal when the product is shipped to customers. We cannot catch 100% of the issues and cannot control the issue if a trucker decides to play the Samsonite Gorilla with a product (referring to an old commercial where a Gorilla throws around a Samsonite suitcase to show how well it stands up), but as everyone knows, we stand behind everything we sell and that is why it is critical to have good oversight during production. There isn't a shipment that leaves without one or more of our QC engineers checking it during and at the end of production.

5) As far as the comment about knock-offs. Guess who designed jointers to have indexing carbide insert spiral cutter-heads that are now the norm in the industry? Also we have the largest choice of machines under one brand in the World! We have come out with features never offered before, but many times considered normal because they have been copied by others. I guess that is why we are the leaders in woodworking machinery in this country.

Finally, we sell more jointers than perhaps all other competitors combined. There is a reason for this besides price.

[Robert Engel]

As previously stated so long as the company stays on top of QC and keeps their own managers on site the product quality will remain.
But if they let the Chinese have their way they will cut every corner they can and use the cheapest steel they can.

This has been the pattern with them. Just look at the crap Harbor Freight sells if you need proof.

I wish is was made in USA but of course if it was made in USA. I vividly recall the made in USA Crapsman contractor saws that was all we could afford.
Made in USA? Look at the cost of Northfield! (and just who is buying those machines, the government?)

Like it or not the reality is economic, regulatory and tax climate in this country has forced them out and nothing is going to change as long as we have an anti-business mentality amongst our political leaders..

[Joe Spear]

If you buy a Honda in this country, it has most likely been assembled in this country. About 70% of Honda parts are manufactured in the U.S. and Canada. About 15% come from Japan. There are similar stats for most other "non-U.S." brands. "American" cars have many parts from other countries. Manufacturing has been so internationalized that it is difficult to pin down exactly what is "foreign" and what is "domestic." In my shop I have had Chinese-manufactured items that have served quite well and some that were pure garbage.

I have bought "American" cars for 45 years. The one I have now is an "American" brand assembled in Canada. I keep a car for 8 to 10 years. The last few I have had are far better than the ones I had decades ago. They also cost a lot more in proportion to average incomes. That is probably true of most car brands, "American" and "foreign."

A friend of mine bought a new Toyota Corolla station wagon in 1971. In the summer of '72 we drove to Mexico on 4 cylinders. We returned two weeks later on 2 cylinders, with an emergency brake job done with Peugeot brake pads ground to fit because Mexico had no Toyota dealers at that time. That was before Toyota understood American driving distances, styles, and speeds. But the company learned quickly and met the challenge to make much better automobiles for our market. I believe "American" manufacturers have done the same quality improvement over the years.

When we judge tools, cars, and whatever else we buy, the manufacturing location should not be the only criterion. We can judge by physical quality, and sociological, political, or emotional reasons. However, we should understand our motivations and not write off any country's products wholesale without understanding what is moving us and seriously examining the facts.

[Paul Charkiewicz]

As we would expect from the Internet, there are a lot of opinions, many good, and some, well...............rubbish!

Let's put some things to rest:

1) The G0490 series of parallelogram jointers was never made in Taiwan. We have carried that unit for almost 10 years and it was always made in China, under our supervision.

2) Over 70% of our machines are made in Taiwan and the production will not change. We have long term relationships with factories in Taiwan and I know all the owners personally, some of whom were small companies and are now public companies! Those relationships are precious for getting things done as well as for loyalty.

3) We have had an office in China for over 16 years with quality control inspectors as well as engineers that are on our payroll. One of them is a German (yes, originally from Germany) whom I have known since before I started Grizzly 33 years ago. He speaks Mandarin as well as about 8 other languages. We also send our engineers to oversee production from our USA headquarters several times a year. All that costs money, but it is imperative that we try to get it right the first time. This is not an easy business to be in, but we make it look easy with the various processes that we have developed and put in place through experience.

4) With any factory, be it China, Taiwan, or even USA, quality control during production is the key to success. If there are problems with a machine, it costs us money to deal with that problem, even if it is just a phone call from the customer. Therefore, we try to make sure that issues are minimal when the product is shipped to customers. We cannot catch 100% of the issues and cannot control the issue if a trucker decides to play the Samsonite Gorilla with a product (referring to an old commercial where a Gorilla throws around a Samsonite suitcase to show how well it stands up), but as everyone knows, we stand behind everything we sell and that is why it is critical to have good oversight during production. There isn't a shipment that leaves without one or more of our QC engineers checking it during and at the end of production.

5) As far as the comment about knock-offs. Guess who designed jointers to have indexing carbide insert spiral cutter-heads that are now the norm in the industry? Also we have the largest choice of machines under one brand in the World! We have come out with features never offered before, but many times considered normal because they have been copied by others. I guess that is why we are the leaders in woodworking machinery in this country.

Finally, we sell more jointers than perhaps all other competitors combined. There is a reason for this besides price.

My intent isn't to interrupt this discussion, but I would like to add that customer service plays an important part in a brands reputation and, in part, reliability. My recent experience with Grizzly customer service is a good example. Here is the response I sent just today to Grizzly Freight Customer Service:
"Jessica and the rest of the Grizzly staff, I applaud you on your customer service and your response time! In a day where customer service gets neglected more and more, it is refreshing to see this type of recognition via email and over the phone. My questions and concerns have not only been answered but done with sincerity and with a level of respect and professionalism unmatched in any industry. I have emailed and spoken to a handful of Grizzly representatives so far and each one has been friendly and curious.

As a result of this first order with Grizzly, I look forward to working with you for many more years."

This, of course, is just my opinion and doesn't reflect directly on the quality of the machines. BUT, if they dedicate so much of their resources to customer service, I would be surprised if their attention to manufacturing did see the same focus.

Thanks,
Paul

[Michael Koons]

"But, there's a difference between a Chinese contractor saw that is made in a sweatshop and a CNC machine that is built in China but designed, overseen, and QA'ed by an Italian or other European. Again, what type of machine are we talking about and more importantly, how much are you willing to spend to make your point? "

Erik - I'm really interested in this last point you made and would be interested in your and this community's opinion. I'm going through a decision making process right now for a very high end, European sliding table saw. One of the vendors produces one of their high end saws in China and I'm really struggling with it. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of buying a German/Austrian/Italian saw knowing it was made in China. By the reactions I've seen on this board, I'm coming to the conclusion that my concerns are silly. But it's a bias I'm having a hard time shaking. I don't have this issue with value tools that cost less than $5k.

It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

[David Kumm]

Someone here has an Altendorf that is Chinese and may chime in. The higher end stuff generally has good QC and a heavier build. The Chinese welds used to be more rough and extrusions less refined but you should look for yourself. The higher end machines are worth comparing if buying new. Pay attention to the motor quality and look at the spec's for the bearings and check the thickness of the base and the sliding table extrusion. Tables being flat, having the ability to lock the table anywhere along its path from a convenient location, good crosscut and rip fences that are easy to adjust and return to square are really important. The key is to buy something higher end than a comparable for the same price, not buy something that looks comparable for less. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

The resale value of the Chinese-made WA-8s that I’ve seen pop up has not been great. Usually less than $10k for one in good to excellent condition.

If you’ve got $20k to work with, I’d look at SCM or Felder.

[Jeff Duncan]

Erik - I'm really interested in this last point you made and would be interested in your and this community's opinion. I'm going through a decision making process right now for a very high end, European sliding table saw. One of the vendors produces one of their high end saws in China and I'm really struggling with it. I have to admit, I don't like the idea of buying a German/Austrian/Italian saw knowing it was made in China. By the reactions I've seen on this board, I'm coming to the conclusion that my concerns are silly. But it's a bias I'm having a hard time shaking. I don't have this issue with value tools that cost less than $5k.

It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

It really depends on the specific product your looking at. You can't say anything made in China is poor quality anymore than you can say anything made in the States is good quality. We make more than our fair share of crap here too. So you have to do the research on the specific tool your looking at and possible find one locally you can check out in person. As someone mentioned previously, Apple products are made in China and quality control hasn't been an issue. It's up to the company that's having the product manufactured to specify and enforce quality control.

good luck,
JeffD

[Erik Loza]

...It's the "how much you're willing to spend" that I'm stuck on. If I spend upwards of $20k on a tool, I was hoping it wouldn't be made in China. Thoughts?

Mike, I understand your concern. My feeling is that if you're spending anywhere near $20K on a slider, unlikely it's going to be Chinese. From the SCM side, the only sliding table saw I know of that has Chinese components is the Si400 Nova, which is still assembled in Italy but has Chinese aluminum extrusions and a Chinese cast iron top. Chassis, motor, electrics still all Italian or German. But, that's a machine that goes out the door at around $11, not $20K. Once you get up to $20K in the SCM lineup, it's the Class series and those are all 100% Italian (and pretty darn nice, too). I would expect that to be the same same for most other mfrs. as well. But all that being said, I never had any issues with the Si400 Nova. It's simple and reliable and tough to beat at the "around $10K" price point. Mike, if I can ask, what saw are you looking at and is this for your home shop? PM me if you want. My SCM email account no longer exists, by the way.

Erik

[Eric Commarato]

When I bought my Powermatic 66 back in the 1990's it was along with Delta the American "standard" for small to medium cabinet shops and light industrial uses. I will say the quality of craftsmanship left much to be desired. The castings were rougher and not particularly ground and cleaned up very well. Welds were crappy etc. The Delta fit and finish was a little better. That said, now that the Asian countries have entered the scene, I must say their products are much superior in fit and finish to what was offered here in the US when local plants were manufacturing machinery in full force. However!!! I have seen used Grizzly table saws that still only sell for about half the price of a comparable used Powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw. I don't know why this is, the Asian product doesn't seem to hold resale value that the older US machinery does. Perhaps someone here can explain this...??? The other thing I might say is that it was nice to get the "parts guy" in the dusty old office in McMinville, Tennessee when I used to call up there looking for a part. Now you call Powermatic and you get like an answering service of someone staring at a computer screen...

[Cary Falk]

When I bought my Powermatic 66 back in the 1990's it was along with Delta the American "standard" for small to medium cabinet shops and light industrial uses. I will say the quality of craftsmanship left much to be desired. The castings were rougher and not particularly ground and cleaned up very well. Welds were crappy etc. The Delta fit and finish was a little better. That said, now that the Asian countries have entered the scene, I must say their products are much superior in fit and finish to what was offered here in the US when local plants were manufacturing machinery in full force. However!!! I have seen used Grizzly table saws that still only sell for about half the price of a comparable used Powermatic 66 or Delta Unisaw. I don't know why this is, the Asian product doesn't seem to hold resale value that the older US machinery does. Perhaps someone here can explain this...??? The other thing I might say is that it was nice to get the "parts guy" in the dusty old office in McMinville, Tennessee when I used to call up there looking for a part. Now you call Powermatic and you get like an answering service of someone staring at a computer screen...

Well they can explain it to me also because I don't get it either. I have restored many tools and only have a PM1200 DP left. It looked like a 2 year old painted it with a rattle can post assembly. But alas, this is discussion for another thread

[Geoff Crimmins]

I have restored many tools and only have a PM1200 DP left. It looked like a 2 year old painted it with a rattle can post assembly. But alas, this is discussion for another thread

That sounds like a pretty accurate description of a Powermatic paint job. I recently restored a 1960s PM 141 bandsaw, and had to roll my eyes when I discovered they had painted the guide blocks in the blade guides. Oh well, they used high-quality castings to make good, solid machines.

I think the opinions of Asian machines has a lot to do with the history of the companies involved. Laguna's roots are in high-end Italian bandsaws, so most people have no concerns about their Chinese-made 14 SUV bandsaw, for example. Grizzly started off as an importer of Asian machines that were less expensive than the American-made alternatives. I think Grizzly has some great, innovate machines now, but some of their early machines weren't nearly as good. As a result, I think some people still perceive Grizzly machines as "cheap," which I think hurts the resale value. I guess that's good if you're buying and bad if you're selling.

--Geoff

[Michael Weber]

I wouldn't worry about the ISO900X certification. I work at a place that has the latest ISO certification. It basically says you have a documented procedure that you follow if your products are out of spec and you follow that product. Two companies can have the same ISO certification but vastly different tolerances. The one that has the tighter tolerances will usually have the better product.

just wanted to confirm that ISO certification has nothing to do with quality of product. If a companies goal is to produce worthless, dangerous, non-working, potentially explosive pieces of junk then it's okay with ISO. It only matters if they inform ISO of and follow self submitted internal methods they use.