Help with decision - sliding table saw, or sliding table saw / shaper?

[Brian W Evans]

I will be buying a sliding table saw - Minimax SC-4 Elite - in the very near future. Right now, though, I am agonizing over whether to get the saw/shaper combo (I already have a J/P combo). The price difference appears to be $4-5k. For the sake of argument, let's assume that's not an issue.

I have a great router table - cast iron BenchDog top, Woodpeckers lift & fence, large router underneath. So far, this has done what I need it to do and I will not be getting rid of it.

I am a hobbiest who plans to build a lot of furniture and built-ins for family and friends, as well as dip my toe into selling some work.

My concern is that I will be dropping a lot of money on the sliding table saw and have a one-time opportunity to add a 5HP shaper with a large sliding table and a huge outrigger, without taking up any additional space. This seems like too good an opportunity to pass up. However, I have never used a shaper. I have read many threads today and watched several videos, but am still not sure why I would want one.

Can anyone offer some guidance here?

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Brian,

I bought a Hammer B3 1.5 years ago and I'm enjoying every bit of it. And yes, I'm happy with my decision that I paid about $3,500-4,000 more to include the shaper. Having said that, I'm not 100% sure if I really needed it. Anyway, here is my thought;

> I had only a hand-made router table, which served me well, but not as functional as many router tables with bells and whistles. Since I bought the B3, it was practically retired. For me, buying a good table and a dedicated router would have cost me $2,000. So, that deflected some costs.
> If you have a space, a dedicated shaper would be more convenient (no change-over time), although the sliding table with the combination machine would be quite useful.
> There are many tasks that router tables can do. The router table doesn't require the change-over time, but I really like the shaper because it is much quieter and smoother. The raising/lowering mechanism is beefy and accurate. The euro-fence is fantastic. Everything is heavy and functional. Can't imagine there are router tables that can match the experience of euro-shapers. And a feeder is another thing you can have for a shaper, which would make the operation very safe.
> The shaper can take router bits. There were some discussions about the performance of router bits with the slow (<10,000rpm) shaper rotations. The cuts by router bits are not as smooth, but I use router bits only for some hidden grooves.
> Cuts by shaper toolings are VERY smooth and those are with one pass. Did I say it runs quieter and smoother?
> Shaper toolings could be EXPENSIVE. Be ready for $500-$1,000 initial costs.

For pro shops, shapers may be must-have for large productions of repeated patterns, especially curvy ones. We hobbyist makes same things only once (ok, maybe 4 times when making chairs). After experimenting pattern cuts, I found myself going back to hand-shaving woods, rather than starting with making plywood patterns. For those tasks that router tables can happily take, I would still like to use my shaper, but I feel that the shaper is luxury for me rather than necessity. So it's depending on how you would value the luxury. If you are working on cabinets of your house and run many panels, I would definitely go for it. If you can swallow $5,000, you won't regret it, but if your router table can take your works without problems, I don't think you are not missing much....

[John Lankers]

I'll make a few additions to Susumu's post.
Instead of buying dedicated cutters for the shaper an insert knife cutterhead with chip limiters gives you access to countless knife profiles at a very reasonable price, steel shaper knives cut smooter and last longer than carbide router bits IMO.
Every shaper should be used with a power feeder whenever possible, safety must come first and the more consistent feedrate and pressure against the table and cutter guarantees better cut quality.
Find out what router spindle speed MM offers, I have a Felder KF700 with the router spindle running at 15.000 RPM which is adequate for 1/2" shank bits with 1/2" diameter and up.
I also use a sanding drum on the shaper spindle to sand solid wood edging or face frame parts smooth using the power feeder and shaper fence.
In a nutshell: add the shaper if you can swing it financially.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

That's a mighty fine sliding table you can use for your shaper.
Go for it. I have the same Bench Dog Table. Worth having in addition to the shaper for small cuts.

[Rich Riddle]

I have several combination machines such as a jointer/planer/mortiser but opted for an individual Minimax shaper. You can find a very nice shaper for the cost of the upgrade.

[Andy Giddings]

I have almost the exact same router table setup (Benchdog lift) and recently bought a Hammer C3 combo. Haven't touched the router table in 6 months as I find the shaper easier to use and it produces better quality cuts in less time. Dust and chip collection is excellent as well. No regrets

[Jim Becker]

Brian, I went with the straight slider to accompany my J/P and (as detailed in a thread here on SMC) added a BenchDog cast iron setup as a "poor man's shaper". In retrospect, I "sometimes" wish I would have acquired the shaper for additional capability, but I've made do fine with the router setup. The shaper would provide the ability to use larger cutters for joinery and other contouring that would not be possible with a router. And as you note, having the ability to use the outrigger, etc., is very nice compared to most router tables.

For example, I recently built an interior door for our home. To develop the profile, I had to use applique rather than milling it directly to the rails/stiles because of the size/thickness.

[Susumu Mori]

I want to add one thing. The style of my furniture are mostly the Shaker style without much edge treatment. If you like to decorate your edge or add molding and profiles, I guess the shaper is godsend and as John said, the profiles cutters may even offer the sense of "economy" in terms of $ and time (cutters last long, inexpensive, one pass, less sanding time, etc),,,, and most importantly, satisfaction.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Brian, I have a Hammer B3 Winner which has the tilting spindle shaper.

I would encourage you to purchase it for all the reasons other people here have stated

- quiet, smooth, excellent dust collection

- HSS cutters in a 40mm euroblock produce far better surfaces than a router bit, knives/limiters are less expensive than router bits.
- add a power feeder on a swing away or flip away bracket.

- the fence is far better than a router table.

- Tilting spindle really adds flexibility.

- produce tenons in one pass that are exactly the same thickness each time.

- if you can, purchase a 30mm spindle as well to save on tooling costs (most of the world is metric).

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

Before I bought a Felder 700 saw/shaper I had a shop full of Powermatic 3HP machines including a shaper and a basic router table. When I got the new Felder I also ordered it with variable speed and the router spindle option. With this I can run up to 19,000 RPM, use the digital height to set and adjust the cutter, and I can use the Aigner Fence. WOW Quiet, Plus I get zero, and I mean zero vibration and great dust collection. I have not put a router in the router table setup since getting the Felder in 2010. I use the shaper spindle for heavy cuts (I always had a shaper) along with a power feeder. Also, once you have used a power feeder and observed the quality of cut when using one, you will want to use a feeder for all cuts. Basically zero profile sanding with sharp cutters coming off a shaper with feeder. Now that I mention it, I should just get rid of the router table stuff. Did I mention quiet, I've always hated the screaming of the router table and the routers always seemed like running with no load was bad for them. I'm sure not but they never seemed happy.

[Brian W Evans]

Thanks to all for your input. The preponderance of advice said to get the shaper (doesn't it always around here? ), but I just couldn't justify it to myself. Here's why:

• I can take the same money and get a dust collection system and a drum sander, which are more useful to me right now.
• I have a very nice router setup that does a great job.
• I am not a pro, so time spent processing parts and sanding them is not as important to me.
• I have no shaper tooling, which would push up my costs considerably.
• Setting up the shaper would prevent use of the table saw, which sounds like sort of a PITA.
• As Susumu pointed out, some work doesn't require shaper capabilities. I don't plan to make doors or large moldings - my tastes run toward clean lines. Besides, the mill work shop can make me thousands of board feet of moldings for the price of the upgrade.
• Shapers are frequently available on Craigslist or other sites, usually for MUCH less than the upgrade would cost me.

Some of this is debatable I suppose but, for me, not getting the upgrade is the right decision right now. Even if I apparently ignored your advice, please understand that you helped me clarify my thinking on this issue and I am grateful.

Cheers,
Brian

[Mike Heidrick]

You gave yourself the option for a stand alone sliding table tilting shaper is all. Its way sweeter than a combo shaper anyway.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, I think your decision process was sound...'didn't know you needed to update your dust collection system and that absolutely is a priority in my book! Looking forward to all the nice photos when your slider arrives!