Lie Neilsen versus Veritas Bench Chisels

[Graham Haydon]

I'm glad David mentioned the Ashely Iles, I would choose them over the LN & LV.

[Glenn de Souza]

Here's another vote for Ashley Iles chisels. I recently upgraded to them from my good old 20+ year old Marples Blues (Sheffield), and there is no comparison. The MK II bench chisel is excellent, and if you do hand dovetailing, you might like the shorter American Pattern butt chisel. Their O1 steel take a very fine edge, and holds it durably.

Agree with the comment that tools like chisels are highly personal. There are definitely technical pros and cons among the various chisel makers but I'd say the final verdict is the one that feels right in your hands.

I ordered a set of LV PM-V11 chisels and no doubt, they are excellent tools, but just didn't feel right for me so they went back.

[Steve Kang]

I use mostly Veritas chisels, in PM-V11.

One thing to consider is handle customization. The L-Ns are conventional 750-style socket chisels, which means you can easily remove and replace the handles if you want something different. The Veritas chisels have a fairly unique socket+tang setup that's much less conducive to customization. On the plus side the Veritas handles don't come off as easily (or at all) in use.

w.r.t. steel I really don't like A2 for chisels. It requires fairly high edge angles to avoid chipping, and IMO that's basically the opposite of what you want from a bench chisel's steel. Veritas apparently agrees, as they offer all of their plane irons in A2, but the only chisels they offer in A2 are the new mortise chisels (which always use a high edge angle anyway).

You bring up a really great point, one which I wish I had considered when buying my PMV-11 chisels. The handle on my 1" chisel has started to degrade with relatively minimum use, though perhaps it's due to poor technique and mallet choice on my part. Things may be different if I were using a urethane mallet rather than brass and if my strikes were more centered. Lee Valley has replacement handles which can be special ordered (at $10.50 a piece + shipping), though I'm not looking forward to the hassle of sawing off the old handles and cleaning off any epoxy.


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[Patrick Chase]

You bring up a really great point, one which I wish I had considered when buying my PMV-11 chisels. The handle on my 1" chisel has started to degrade with relatively minimum use, though perhaps it's due to poor technique and mallet choice on my part. Things may be different if I were using a urethane mallet rather than brass and if my strikes were more centered. Lee Valley has replacement handles which can be special ordered (at $10.50 a piece + shipping), though I'm not looking forward to the hassle of sawing off the old handles and cleaning off any epoxy.

Yeah, if you beat the sh*t out of your handles then either socketed chisels (Stanley 750, L-N, etc) or something with a hoop are going to be a safer bet. In LV's defense the instructions do recommend using a "lighter" (and presumably non-metallic) mallet. Those bevel-edge chisels aren't really made to take a pounding.

Their mortise chisels are a different matter, as those are both heftier and hooped :-).

[David Dalzell]

I have both LN and Veritas chisels. The LN are more comfortable for my hand. The veritas edges seems to last longer. However the difference in both ege retention and comfort is minor. I use both equally. Either will be a great set.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You bring up a really great point, one which I wish I had considered when buying my PMV-11 chisels. The handle on my 1" chisel has started to degrade with relatively minimum use, though perhaps it's due to poor technique and mallet choice on my part. Things may be different if I were using a urethane mallet rather than brass and if my strikes were more centered. Lee Valley has replacement handles which can be special ordered (at $10.50 a piece + shipping), though I'm not looking forward to the hassle of sawing off the old handles and cleaning off any epoxy.


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I dented my Veritas butt chisel the first use with mild taps from a hornbeam mallet while marking saw cut lines for tenons. I'm a bit disappointed with that- not because I didn't expect them to get dented, but because I wasn't using a whole lot of force at the time. That said, after those first few dents the handles held up fine. I guess the wood compresses and becomes harder. I do love the design and feel of the Veritas chisels, and love the widths of the butt chisels. The fixed handles add a bit of security, but I would sure hate to replace one.

I have beat the heck out of my LN chisels and they still look like new after years of use. I chose LN before Veritas had chisels of their own. I chose them over Ashley Iles, Two Cherries, and others because of the removable handles and the fact that they offer a long handle for paring, which I love. https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4101/chisel-handles I also appreciate the fine beveled edge. What I don't like is kind of a catch 22 with the removable handles- great for swapping and replacing handles, but you have to really make sure they are in good. I use a bit of hairspray on the ends to keep them locked in. It works surprisingly well.

After using both, I lean towards the Lie-Nielsens because of the swappable handles and the durability of the hornbeam handles.

[Thomas Schneider]

I have the Ashely Iles and think they're ok, but I had a few issues. First, I found I had to get past the first 1/16th or so before the edge would stop rolling over. I think this is a common problem with many new chisels. Second, I didn't find the backs of mine to be very flat, and it took quite a bit of work to get them there. And lastly, the ferrules on three of mine split I have no idea how to replace them. That being said, after working with them for a while, the steel holds up well. I just use them for paring and have them set at 25 deg. I also own a set of the new Stanley chisels patterned after the fabled 750's. I found some of the same issues with the new 750's as with the Iles. Backs not flat and edge needed to get past the fist couple of fractions. For the money, I think the Stanley's are a very good value! After getting used to the Stanley chisels, I bought two more 3/8 and ground them to be skewed for tight work. I have no experience with the LN or Varitas chisels. YMMV!

Tom.

[Jim Koepke]

What I don't like is kind of a catch 22 with the removable handles- great for swapping and replacing handles, but you have to really make sure they are in good. I use a bit of hairspray on the ends to keep them locked in. It works surprisingly well.

To me it is curious this problem doesn't happen often with my older chisels. It does occur with an ill fitting handle. Not having an LN chisel, my theory is only that, a theory. My old chisels are not smooth inside the socket. Many have rough surfaces from oxidation, others from the manufacturing process. My thought is the LN chisels have very smooth surfaces from not only being new but because of the machining leaving a smooth surface inside the socket. A smooth surface will not have as much of a hold as a rough surface in this situation.

Maybe someone with an LN chisel or two can confirm or disprove my theory.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I have the Ashely Iles and think they're ok, but I had a few issues. First, I found I had to get past the first 1/16th or so before the edge would stop rolling over. I think this is a common problem with many new chisels.

It's a common problem with chisels made by people who can't afford vacuum or inert-gas furnaces. It's probably caused by one or both of two things:

• Decarburization of the tip. As as been noted many times, carbon tends to migrate out of steel and react with the atmosphere when the metal is heated above the critical temperature, as during hardening. A vacuum or inert-gas furnace will kill that problem dead. There are other ways to mitigate it (for starters you can just grind the decarbed steel off instead of making your customers do it) but fancy furnaces are how the big boys play.
• Poorly controlled tempering. If you don't take care to heat the tool uniformly (which is slow) then the tip will tend to get hotter than the rest of the tool. Once again a well-controlled furnace (and time) takes care of the issue.

Either way, it's a sign of amateurish heat-treatment. And we wonder why the modern Sheffield makers have a lingering rap for soft steel.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

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Yup- smooth on the inside. I may take some coarse sandpaper and rough that up a bit.

[Jim Koepke]

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Yup- smooth on the inside. I may take some coarse sandpaper and rough that up a bit.

It may be good to wrap the sandpaper around the cone of the handle and then only turn it to make ridges and valleys for the handle to catch.

jtk

[Mike King]

I have the Veritas PMV-11 bench chisels and they are great -- much better than my Sorby bench chisels. One minor quibble with them is that the side bevel is so sharp that it has cut my hand several times when paring joints. The owner of the local Woodcraft has had the same issue.

Mike

[Patrick Chase]

I have the Veritas PMV-11 bench chisels and they are great -- much better than my Sorby bench chisels. One minor quibble with them is that the side bevel is so sharp that it has cut my hand several times when paring joints. The owner of the local Woodcraft has had the same issue.

Mike

Although it should be obvious, LV helpfully tells you to ease those edges in the instructions. See the section entitled "Breaking the Side Edges".

I love the fact that the bevel goes all the way to the back, forming a 45 deg corner. In order to do that while maintaining constant and accurate width (and they are very accurate) they almost certainly have to do a fair bit of shaping post-heat-treating, and that costs serious machine time. Most makers just leave the bottom of each side at 90 deg to the back instead.

[Stewie Simpson]

It's a common problem with chisels made by people who can't afford vacuum or inert-gas furnaces. It's probably caused by one or both of two things:

• Decarburization of the tip. As as been noted many times, carbon tends to migrate out of steel and react with the atmosphere when the metal is heated above the critical temperature, as during hardening. A vacuum or inert-gas furnace will kill that problem dead. There are other ways to mitigate it (for starters you can just grind the decarbed steel off instead of making your customers do it) but fancy furnaces are how the big boys play.
• Poorly controlled tempering. If you don't take care to heat the tool uniformly (which is slow) then the tip will tend to get hotter than the rest of the tool. Once again a well-controlled furnace (and time) takes care of the issue.

Either way, it's a sign of amateurish heat-treatment. And we wonder why the modern Sheffield makers have a lingering rap for soft steel.

Interesting comments Patrick; I have just finishing mortising out a new sharpening box using a 1950s era WM Maples Boxwood Handled Firmer Chisel on Hard Aust. Jarrah, The cutting edge of chisel showed no signs of undue wear, requiring only a few swipes on the pure chromium oxide loaded strop, to freshen the edge before moving onto the 2nd mortise on the upper box half. The boxwood handles show no signs of mushrooming over those many years of use before I received them, and continue to survive undamaged in my time of use with considerable force with a wooden mallet.

[Matthew Hills]

My LN chisels are my go-to chisels.
I like that they aren't too top heavy (make it easy to keep on the line when chopping),
I like the fit of the handle in my palm when using by hand,
and I like the side profile for cleanup work (although have to watch for cuts on your off-hand when holding!).


My other chisels:
- Irwin (my first chisels; got a lot of work done, sharpen very easily, but needed very frequent resharpening)
- Ashley Iles (I haven't used much; these felt bulky to me -- long/heavy steel and big handles)
- Koyamaichi 3/6/12/36mm (work well; 3mm is for cleanup; rest mostly get used for chopping; the hoop is annoying for holding in hand)
- Czeck Edge dovetail chisel (nice chisel; but definitely on the compact size)


I'm using Sigma waterstones for sharpening.
Koyamaichi and LN are in a similar bucket for retention/sharpening.

Matt