Guys and Gals, It's time to get to work, time to donate!!

[John Bailey]

Tim,

As I've said in other posts, I understand there may be some problems, some "unintended consequenses" in donating now. However, if we get the job done now, Keith will have more options. As a person that was essentially paid for making decisions in my career, I know sometimes it's the most difficult thing to do. So, I think we can help Keith by making our own individual decisions and donate now. It's time.

We Need to Send Some Money!

John

Again, those whose have sent donations but not posted the amount, thanks.

[John Shuk]

I have donated several times in the past and have no problems doign so again...and again....but i do am thinking along the lines of what Randy said.

Keith.....what can we do to help this time?

I'm all over trying to help too. I think it best to find out what The Outtens want or need. The problem is that keeping something like this going requires infrastructure. A T circuit is expensive. What I suspect is really needed is a place where there is some extra bandwidth available for the server to hang out. Now try to find a "woodworking" friendly business to meet that need. Now also try to find a business who is willing to donate bandwidth and keep their hands off of the forums for their own profit. There are alot of pieces to the equation. HRO just happened to be the business where SMC resided as a constructive way to use bandwidth. It looks like HRO is going away and that is why SMC is in danger. We can't unfortunately sustain HRO with our donations. I think we need to wait and see what The Outtens come up with and ask for us to help with. And answer the call when needed.

[Bernie Weishapl]

First and foremost I would like to thank Keith and Jackie for all they have done in making this a pleasant experience for me and a great learning place with lots of wonderful caring people. I wish them all the best in whatever they do. Also a big thanks to the moderators.

I agree with Peter. Even if Keith and Jackie decide not to continue to run it, I will consider it a donation. The donation is small compared to what I have gained on this site. As Ken said it is more like a family than just a forum. I have made a lot of new friends here, have gained a wealth of knowledge and all the moderators have kept it running smoothly and made everyone feel welcome. You can ask whatever you want here. There is no dumb question. I used to teach electronics and I always told my students as my grandfather always told me, the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask.

I like Ken also was on another users group site. The very first question I posted I was asked how dumb was I and it continued on with every answer I got. That was my last question there. I am very new to the serious side of woodworking. I want to be the best I can be with the equipment and shop I have. Since classes out in this country are far and few between this to me is the next best place to learn.

I love seeing the pictures posted of projects being done and hoping someday I can make some nice projects. I too will be retiring in about 4 yrs. I am setting up my shop and tools. I have gotten many great ideas and from the knowledge on here have made some of what I consider good and informed choices on the tools I have purchased. I have gotten a load of ideas on shop setups.

If it is Keith and Jackie's choice to keep it running with donations or have yearly membership dues count me in.

[Jim Becker]

Folks....before this turns into a major money storm, let's see what Keith has to say about the best way to proceed. I am not saying to avoid contributions...far from it, as I believe that contributions and/or a small membership fee really is the right way to go...but as someone already pointed out, let's not cause a tax or legal problem. With HRO shutting down, flooding money in could also complicate things for Keith and Jackie that we do not know anything about. (!) In other words, let's be sure things are organized and proceed from there. In the mean time, think about how much SMC is worth to you and be prepared to ani-up.

[John Bailey]

Jim,

There is no one on this site that is worthy of being listened to, and whose opinion should be trusted more than you. However, I must respectfully point out that waiting to give financial support is what has caused the problem. More than the actual dollar amount, by sending a donation now, we are all showing our support by taking action. Most will decide to give a certain amount and give it, even if the decision is later. Some, however, may intend well now, but, forget, or for whatever reason, not donate. By donating now, the money's in the bank and the support is given. Action can be taken quickly without having to inform. I will trust Keith and any other decision makers to make the right decisions.

Again, I respect and admire your input, but the time is here.

We Need to Send Some Money!

John

Again, those whose have sent donations but not posted the amount, thanks.

[Kevin Murdock]

Folks....before this turns into a major money storm, let's see what Keith has to say about the best way to proceed.

I agree with Jim here.

There's been an assumption as to how much cash flow is needed to run the site, and it's become the de-facto goal post to win the game.

Let's get the information gathered on what is required. Once we know where the goal posts are, then we can rush the field.

/Kevin

[Jim Becker]

John, my only point was to be sure we are not causing additional problems. This is not a non-profit situation like our local PBS stations. Again, I applaud and encourage folks to support the effort...I have done so myself when we needed the new server...and will do so again to help keep SMC strong and in place.

I'm sure that Keith will respond when he sees this thread and give us guidance as to what works for him. You know me as a fellow woodworker (and one with a loud mouth), but I am also a businessman. The latter is speaking in this thread.

[John Bailey]

Jim,

It's a good point. And at many levels, I agree. But, at the level of getting the job done right now, I think it's best to take action now. Those who make the decisions will have to deal with an unknown if the money is not in the bank. It will be conjecture how much will be there. I think the donations should be sent now, others, legitimately, feel waiting is correct. Time, as always, will tell.

We Need to Send Some Money!

John

[Richard Wolf]

I'm with John on this one, make your donations. If Keith feels this is not the right direction to go, charge cards don't have to be processed and checks can go uncashed. It seems that in the past, Keith has not made a strong point of asking for donations. I only remember donating one other time, but am very willing to put my money up because this is an important venue for me.
Like John states; if we put this off it will go the wrong way, lets give Keith an option to use our resourses to do as he thinks best.

Richard

[John Bailey]

Kevin,

That's good input. The amount I've been using is not total assumption. There are 5,608 members. Keith said in if each member donated $5 a year all expenses could be covered. That's about $2,337 per month. I rounded that up, to be conservative, and came up with $2,500. If we can't raise that, then the interest is probably not there. So, is it a defacto amount - probably. However, I feel we need to rush the field now and show support for the team.

We Need to Send Some Money!

John

[John Bailey]

Richard,

White bearded guys must think alike.

We Need to Send Some Money!

John

[Ian Barley]

For waht the opion is worth I agree with Jim. The issue isn't about keeping the thing going for a month - it is anout keeping the thing going.

Keith has indicated that there are many reasons that he is taking the action he is taking. One of them was the desire not to be in a 24 hour business. While I want to keep the resource going it shouldn't be despite Keith's own intentions.

There are many questions to be asked and answered. Keith is making efforts to relocate elsewhere. What can we do to make those efforts more viable?

I can see that hosting SMC made sense for HRO when it was buying bandwidth for other purposes. If it no longer needs to buy the bandwidth SMC is not using spare - it is using and therefore has to be paying. I don't know how fat the pipe needs to be but I would guess that it needs to be of a size that will not be cheap as a single use item.

The answer to the problem isn't really to patch the thing together on a month by month basis. The comms facilities are presumably run on an annual (at least) contract. None of us would sign a $30,000 contract without being reasonably certain of a matching income stream. Unless we can raise that sort of money Keith would be a fool to make the commitment. On that basis John the 250 you are seeking need to put in $120 each?? I think its worth it and if 249 other people say the same we might just have a chance. But I doubt it.

I would like to know whether, given the change of HRO circumstatnces, there isn't a more economical option. I can get a managed server for between $100 - $250 a month which gives unlimited bandwidth, 100mbit data transfer speed. Now it may be that these specs are unsuitable or that some other aspect makes this an unsuitable option. Jim has already said that it would be more complicated but complicated is better than dead!

[Ray Bersch]

I think perhaps I read more into Keith's post than most - here is a quote from his post...

"Another consideration is that Jackie and I have decided that after ten years of managing a 24 hour per day business it is time to just let go and move on."

Perhaps Saw Mill Creek is just a small part of that 24 hour per day business, but they also run another business and it may be that they just want to move on - regardless of the finances.

Keith, speak up - or someone give them a call, Jim, you would be a good one to do that. Let us know what the situation is and how we can help.

Considering what I pay for newspaper subscriptions alone, or for fuel for my boat (last summer - what will I pay NEXT summer?), or bait for my fishing line, not to mention the time and money this form has saved me in my woodworking hobby, whatever reasonable financial commitment it takes to keep this forum alive will be worth it to me. So, I'd be willing to commit to a subscription, even an up front multi-year subscription if that is what it takes - but I don't want to force upon some one a task that is no longer wanted and by making all these contributions that may be what we are doing.

I have absolutely no idea what effort is involved in running a web site like this one, but I'll bet we can get enough volunteers to do so and, from the support expressed in this post, the money also.

Count me in - just let me know what direction we are headed and how I can help.
Ray

[Ken Shoemaker]

I am, albeit somewhat selfishly, consumed with the fact I may lose the most important resource I will ever have while enjoying my new found hobby. I respect, as alwaysl the opinions of every member of SMC.

Mr. Wolf but it so clearly, don't cash the checks or process the credit cards and it all goes away. However, a precise dollar amount in hand will, in and of itself, clearly define the options for SMC.

[Keith Outten]

We discussed this in the Moderators forum and the majority felt that a Member supported platform wouldn't work. It seems we may have been wrong.

Let me make you guys and gals an offer....Cox Cable will provide us a commercial cable connection here in my workshop with 768K of outbound traffic. This is just a bit more than we have been using for the last few months. The cost is $109.00 per month on a twelve month contract or $1308.00 per year. If we can collect $1200.00 I will sign a contarct for a year, we will have to collect more in the weeks to come so we are able to pay someone to act as our part time server administrator. We will also have to pay someone, hopefully Jackie, to take care of the banking and post time to accounts when money is collected. Additionally we could create a new Member Class to thank those who are providing our financial support and offer other perks as well like an advertising forum open for "Gold Members" to freely advertise their wares. Possibly this would entice others to support SMC and keep the cost per member very low so even our younger woodworkers could easilly be able to subscribe.

My reference to getting out of the 24 hour per day business was meant to mean the tech support we have been responsible for, helping our web hosting and dialup customers. SMC has never been a burden to any of our Admin or Moderators including myself.

If we have enough support this week I will assume the contractual obligation for SMC to continue as a Member Supported Forum. Just so you know that I am serious I will donate $50.00 of my personal funds per year and continue to volunteer my time as an Administrator. If we are unable to collect the necessary funds this week Jackie and I will return all monies collected.

No matter what the outcome this week let me say I appreciate everyones efforts and all of your kind words of encouragement both publicly and privately. Jackie and I have both been truly touched, we are fortunate indeed to have so many friends.

.