Cabinet Saw or European Slider

[David Kumm]

Middle ground. Short stroke saw.DSCN3200.jpg Crosscuts >36" and does everything a straight cabinet saw will do. The small Hammer is similar but much lighter duty. The SS slider is not a very good table design but a great blade stop design. There are a few older short stroke Euro saws that are a heavier build but few new ones. The key to a practical short stroke is for the sliding table to lock flush with the front of the fixed table. If it protrudes in the front it might as well be 10' and then do everything. Dave

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for your response. It appears that the sliders would be clearly superior for panel work and crosscutting and may be more capable of allowing me to eliminate a sliding miter from the shop. What is your perspective on this?

I still use my CMS, but largely to break down long rough stock and sometimes for other detail work where the miter cutting specialty is convenient.

Do you find the slider to function as well or at least nearly as well for rip cuts in dimensional lumber?

As another community member mentioned, ripping is "different" on a slider. Most of my ripping is done on the wagon after flattening and thicknessing on the J/P. It totally eliminates "edge jointing" on a jointer since the cut is perfectly perpendicular to the faces of flattened lumber and there isn't the minute variability in straightness that's inherent with running a board along a fence. With the slider, you're also not limited to indexing to the edge of the board that the sawyer created. If the grain is better suited with the new first edge not being parallel to the sawyers' edge, it's extremely simple on a slider to just rip a new edge along any line you want to. I use a parallel rip jig to bring lumber to width as long as they are 4" or so or wider. Narrow stock still gets done with the fence, but I often use the fence in the lower position (only about 3/8" tall) which makes for a less constricted space to move the wood with a pushbock/pushstick.

Do you find a cabinet saw or slider to be more space efficient?

Heck no. As was already mentioned in another post, sliders inherently require more space because you need to account for the full travel of the wagon. For my 8'6" MiniMax slider, that's 19' end to end. A 10' slider needs a couple feet more in either direction for full travel.

Did you find the slider to be superior in terms of dust collection?

Dust collection is generally good with a slider because most designs have a shroud that surrounds the blade(s) as well as overhead collection available when cuts allow it. The primary port on my saw is 120mm, which is similar to a 5" port. Most cabinet saws only come with a 4" port and most don't have any OEM way to direct air flow (which is what moves the dust) from the blade to the port.

Initially I will be using the saw for a good bit of cabinetry involving panel work. I expect that will diminish over time and my work will likely end up being 60/40 or maybe even 70/30 milling lumber/panel work. In that scenario do you find the benefits of a slider to outweigh those of a cabinet saw?

Sliders clearly excel in processing sheet goods and for those few projects I do that involve sheet goods, it's been a pleasure in that respect. Most of my woodworking is with solid stock, however. What I love is the repeatability and not having my hands anywhere near the blade for a large percentage of cuts.

Thanks for any additional perspective you can add.

Always a pleasure. Again, working with a slider is often a different experience and there absolutely is a learning curve for anyone moving from a traditional North American style saw. (cabinet, contractors' style, etc.) It's not for everyone. Most folks who have one tend to really like them, however, so that's a positive factor.

[David M Peters]

I have a "small format" slider, the now-discontinued Grizzly G0700 and like it. I have a smallish basement workspace and didn't want to wind up building all the jigs I see people using. Watching how Andrei uses his slider for easy ripping/cross cutting convinced me to get one and I'm happy that I did. I have exactly zero table saw jigs. My wedgie sled consists of two boards with lock knobs that fit into the slider slots.

I do have two main complaints about the sliding format though:
* Standard 3/4" miter slot accessories will not fit into the metric slots.
* Ripping a wider panel against the fence sometimes requires that you take the miter gauge off this losing whatever calibration you had done before. However I think this is mostly a problem with my Grizz because the Hammer has an adjustable 90 degree stop on the side of the table.

[Martin Wasner]

I had hoped to avoid precisely this type of asinine comment that adds nothing of substance to any discussion. But apparently there is no avoiding those, like you, whose idea of achievement is to make what they believe are witty comments on internet forums to puff up their ego by attempting to denigrate others.

I have been using power tools since grade school. I also engage in many other activities that present much much higher levels of risk of both injury and death - out in the real world and not sitting behind my keyboard. I've been doing these things for 60 years. Unlike you, I've actually learned from life experiences and understand that despite my greatest effort to take every possible precaution I cannot control every element of risk and that human error is inevitable.

Please do me and others a favor and troll elsewhere. I am interested in information from intelligent people who have something of substance to share. You clearly do not meet that criteria.

I make a living with my tools, and know full well what happens if I screw up. Guess what? I don't screw up. No troll, just know your limitations, which it sound like you do but aren't willing to accept.

[Darcy Warner]

I just drug out my holzher 1243 yesterday to cut some small beveled pieces for a project. My Whitney and Greenlee were set up for other tasks so dragging out the big slider was easier.

I have a short stroke Fortis that is a nice saw too.

It's nice having multiple saws, if I could only have one, it's a tough choice between my Whitney 77 with a rolling table or something like my fortis or even an older t75.

I still don't think I could live with something like my 1243 or my scmi w16 as my only saw though. I don't rip much lumber on a table saw, slr does all of that, but those big sliders just don't seem viable as an only saw option with how they are set up.

[Van Huskey]

Here is something to consider, not a lot of fine furniture makes that move to a slider seem to ever move back to a cabinet saw. The key seems to be putting in the time and thought to wrap one's head around different methods of operation. Things like replacing years (or decades) of fixtures and jigs designed for a cabinet saw are one of the examples of time and effort involved in the changeover. If I were in my 20's again I am pretty sure I would go the slider route. At this point I have fewer years to "perfect" that huge list of techniques that I thought in my 20's I would have mastered by now so the idea of diverting attention to relearning a core machine, for me, seems like a poor allocation of my time. It is like my nephews try to drive me to getting a CNC machine and a 3D printer (since they want the "free" capability) and while I do have an interest in them I still prefer to spend that learning curve time getting better at other tasks. In my view the less time you have using a cabinet saw the better one is poised to make the change unless they are simply interested in learning something new. I know pretty much for a fact it would take me a long time to translate my decades of using a cabinet saw to using a slider and I simply have better things to do with that time. Understand this is coming from a person that although I have used sliders it has only been for sheet goods and I have never watched someone use a slider in person for fine woodworking. I have always wanted to take one of Sam Blasco's classes demonstrating the use of a slider for "our" kind of work but figure it isn't in my best interest since I would probably get hooked and it would be what I consider adding a new hobby which is the LAST thing I need to do.

While I know I haven't offered much of the concrete info the OP is looking for I say if they are willing to put in the time to adapt their techniques and learn new ones for the basic cutting of wood then go for it, as again I have never seen anyone say they regretted the move.

[James Zhu]

The Felder sliding table accepts the Incra miter gauge without modification.

John, can you post a picture? I just do not see how is that possible to install the Incra miter gauge on the Felder sliding table without modification. The slot on Felder sliding table is too wide, and miter bar on Incra miter gauge is not wide enough.

[John Lankers]

John, can you post a picture? I just do not see how is that possible to install the Incra miter gauge on the Felder sliding table without modification. The slot on Felder sliding table is too wide, and miter bar on Incra miter gauge is not wide enough.

James, it does work. I will post a picture tomorrow.

[Robin Frierson]

In my last shop I had both a cabinet saw and a very nice Felder slider. To keep my answer short I'll just say I used the cabinet saw a lot more. The slider was a thing of beauty when it came to using plywood. If I was a cabinet maker I would definitely have a slider. But I don't use very much plywood except for a building shop cabinets.

And like some have said, I learned on a cabinet saw and found myself going back to it rather than using new techniques on the slider. I did spend a lot of time on the Felder forum and found you could do pretty much everything on the slider. But most of my work involves smaller pieces of hardwood and I just felt better on the cabinet saw. Plus The slider took up an acre of space and I had to buy a phase converter. One plus of the slider was I used the overhead guard and with the cabinet saw I go guardless. I had to buy a new saw it would definitely be the SS.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Here's my take. Im 46, been working full time in our custom woodworking business (even mix of cabinetry, furniture and millwork) since 1995. Grew up in the shop for many years previously. We've always had at least one cabinet saw (several unisaws) and one full size slider. So, I have extensive experience with both - for many years - of daily use.

That being said, every person's particular product(s), comfort, bias, etc will govern what opreration is preferred on what saw. There is no definite right or wrong to me. I have changed what I do on what saw, several times over the years.

Currently, we run a 10' Griggio C45 slider (a 9.5Hp saw with a 10' carriage) - outfitted with two pneumatic hold downs, and a few other accessories - and a 5HP Sawstop cabinet saw, stock except it has one extra cast iron wing on the left side and a 2nd set of outrigger legs.

Both saws get used each day, several times. Since we cut a lot of solid wood and sheet product, its a pretty even mix. I process 99% of panel products on the slider (much safer, more accurate and as equally important in a working environment, its faster and much easier on the operator). However, I also dado on the slider, cut wooden panels, straighten long stock, process thicker material due to the 4" cut height, etc. If we have a lot of lumber to rip, the higher Hp is also a benefit. The cabinet saw gets used constantly though - for general ripping, some cross cutting, grooving, etc. I find it much easier to cut smaller stock, rip narrow pieces, etc on the smaller saw. The guard is easier to work close up to vs the slider's fairly large overhead unit. With some shop made accessory fences and such, the cabinet saw is quite a versatile machine.

In a nutshell, both saws are what I'd consider mandatory in our shop. If I had to choose one, I guess it would out of necessity be the slider. Everything can be done on it, and more - and with a selection of some different diameter blades, small work would be as doable.

If I were not processing much sheet goods, I'd select a shorter machine. I know one guy that was a former employee for 18 or so years, and is running the shop we sold to him in 2010, has just added a Felder short slider to his shop. He has a Unisaw, a 10' Italian slider and now the Felder slider. He loves it, and it seems to be a good addition to his shop (4 guys trying to use two saws was a bottleneck). He also does the same mix of work we do.

It took me several years working to adapt from the cabinet saw, to do more on the slider. At one time, all we did use the slider for was processing sheets. Now, with a drawer full of various blades for it, and far better hold downs etc, the slider is extremely valuable.

My father ran the shop early on though (70's and 80's) with 5 guys and two cabinet saws only, until he purchased the first slider. And they made a whole lot of product on those saws, so It can be done. If I were looking at a new cabinet saw, Sawstop industrial 5 or 7.5 Hp would be my choice. I love mine. 6 years strong, daily use and its like the day we set it up.

[Andy Giddings]

Russ, am another user that has migrated from cabinet to slider and would not go back. Jim and David have summarized the pros and cons very well. I use the slider for panel work and for solid wood projects - small or large scale. As others have pointed out, your work methods will need to change but small scale work is easy to do on a slider.

On the question of a sliding miter - mine has been dormant even when I had a cabinet saw. The only reason I haven't put it on Craig's List is I've been lazy.

Dust collection for a slider tends to be better IMHO as the dust port is bigger and most have overhead collection built in.

[Erik Loza]

I have been planning to purchase a Sawstop 36" 5hp ICS. But, having read a number of threads about European saws I've begun to wonder if something like a Hammer K3 31x31 might better suit my needs...

My 2-cents, feel free to accept or reject as you like:

1.) If you're going to spend $5K-ish, I would get sliding table saw over a regular cabinet saw. No matter how safe it is or how much you pimp it out with add-ons (regardless of brand), your cabinet saw will still only be really good at ripping straight, not squaring sheet goods.

2.) If I were going to buy a sliding table saw (again, regardless of brand), I would make absolutely sure that no matter how else it was spec'ed out, it would be able to crosscut a 4X8 sheet through the blade and that it had a frame table and outrigger support. I realize that some mfr's offer "small" sliders with sub-48" table lengths but if you go that route, what you end up with is just a regular cabinet saw with a mitre gauge, since it is incapable of squaring up a panel on the slider, except you probably will pay "Euro pricing", not "regular cabinet saw pricing".

FYI that you should take a look at the Minimax SC2 Classic. Great machine, highly underrated, and in your price range as long as you can live without dado. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[John Lankers]

John, can you post a picture? I just do not see how is that possible to install the Incra miter gauge on the Felder sliding table without modification. The slot on Felder sliding table is too wide, and miter bar on Incra miter gauge is not wide enough.

Here are pictures of my Incra miter gauge on my Felder KF700 S Pro

[Jim Becker]

John, I'm curious about how (and why) you're employing the Incra miter gage on the slider. Don't you have a native miter gage that moves with the wagon? Are you fixing the location of the Incra on the wagon so it stays in one place or are you sliding it in the slot like you would do on a cabinet saw? 'Just curious... My MM slider has an extremely accurate miter gage/fence that I keep on the right end of the wagon. This is separate from the outrigger that would support larger and longer stock.

[Richard Zimmerman]

Unlikely to be as precise as a true slider, but SawStop does offer a slider attachment. The sliding table is not adjacent to the blade as in a true sliding saw, so unless you configure a jig, no sliding cuts for small pieces. However it would allow you to clamp work to the slider, stand out of the kickback zone, and keep your hands away from the blade. As far as accuracy for holding the crosscut fence square to the blade, I'm not sure why it would be more or less prone to change with use, assuming the initial setup with a fixed stop at 90 degrees was done well. I do not believe it has the stroke capacity of a full length slider, but more closely approximates a short slider.