Dove tail chisel

[Tom Bussey]

I have wanted a set of dove tailed chisels for a long time and I love the look of the Lie-Nielsen one. But the cost kind of out weighted the amount of times I would need one. On a comment I made a long time ago One person said why don't you just take an old chisel and grind it. My return comment was it just wouldn't look right, and I like nice looking tools. Well that was vanity speaking

As some of you know we have a antique -this and that store and I have a box of old chisels I pick up at auctions out on the table. Well I swallowed my pride and went out and got a 1/2 inch chisel, went over to my disk sander and went to work. I didn't swallow my pride completely because I did pick a good wood handled one that has a leather washer to help with mallet blows. I figured that it might have better steel in it.

I watch Lie-Nielsen's video on sharpening their dove tail chisel and I must say that mine is definitely not as pretty as theirs but it fits just fine in my Tormek jig so sharpening will be very easy to sharpen compared to theirs. As I have found most of the fish tailed chisels on the market need to be done free hand.

Anyway. I read somewhere that fish tailed chisels are sharpened at 15 degrees so I tried it and man does it slice nicely. Now I know just like everyone. who is anybody, in woodworking knows that the angle is 25 degrees for soft wood and 30 degrees for hard wood. And pattern makers prefer to set their tool rest at 27 1/2 degrees because they work with both. consistently so there is no need to reply about how you always use a certain angle and so on. Anyway I thought I would try the 15 degree angle because, like a micro bevel from 25-30, the angle is easy to change. I also had to spend some time flattening the back. This old used chisel also had some chips in the cutting edge and a burr.

Anyway it isn't pretty but I had a $3 price tag on it when I picked it out of the box and I am quite happy with how it turned out to date. In use it might require some fine tuning. I am not sure how well the 15 Degree angle will hold up but it is a very specializes tool now and it won't see any rough work only the final finish work so I will see.

I final note: if someone decides to give it a try, one needs to be very careful because once steel starts to turn light straw brown one is starting to take the hardness out of the steel, and the loss of hardness goes fare deaper than just removing the color.

Anyway it isn't real pretty but then it wasn't $78.

DSC02992.JPG DSC02993.JPG

[Brian Holcombe]

Tom,

Taper the sides more. .....then re-apply the bevels.

[Bob Glenn]

I ground some chisels at a 20 degree angle and they all chipped.

[Jim Koepke]

Who cares about pretty if it does a good job?

Certainly not me,

jtk

[Bruce Haugen]

Here's one I made from a 1/2" Stanley No. 60, handle from a piece of live oak scavenged from firewood at Yosemite.

You're right, it takes a long time and a lot of care to keep from burning the temper out of it, but it's worth the effort.

dovetail chisel.jpg

[Mike Henderson]

Looks good. Another alternative is to make two skew chisels, one left and one right. I bought a couple of 1/4" Irwins and did that. They were $10 each (new) when I bought them.

Then, I got a 3/8" Blue Spruce fishtail as a gift one day.

But I find that I can clean the corners of half blind sockets pretty well without a skew or fishtail, so they don't get much use.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

+1. I made 2 skews from 1/4" Buck Brothers, based on something l found on your website Mike. They work like a charm!

[Jeff Ranck]

Looks good and it is a good idea to repurpose chisels. I believe George also posted some pictures of some fishtails he made using some W1 steel. He said they were very easy to make (basically hit the steel with a hammer and you have an automatic fishtail). I haven't tried it yet, but the idea appealed to me.

[Tom Bussey]

I have a couple of 1/2 inch crown skew chisels and I had trouble getting in tight places, That's why I wanted one in the first place. I do know that I will also make a dovetail chisel out of a smaller chisel I just don't know what I have a the present.

W1 is just water hardening steel nothing special. Water is the quench medium. Just like 01 is an oil quench and A is air hardening. One can buy a set of cheaper chisels for less money than one can probably buy a piece of W1 and then one has to have a way of getting the steel to quenching temperature and as soon as the steel starts to turn red the steel will start to de-carburize. Hitting it with a hammer sounds good and it is like someone saying OH you can get a grant for that and then walk away. Easy to say hard to do even with a lot of extra work.

I was a friends house delivering a band saw I sold him and I showed it to him and after a little use it stopped working. He said I had a burr on the cutting edge. But I didn't, it was a rolled cutting edge. That is why Butchers use a steel. Not to sharpen but to roll the cutting edge straight. That means that the 15degree cutting edge is to thin for much use so I am going to try a 20 Degree angle, It won't take much more that a micro bevel to get there. I do know that a 22 1/2 included angle is supposed to be the perfect cutting angle. but we will see. With all the work removing the mass changing the angle doesn't take much work .

[Frederick Skelly]

Nice fishtail chisel Tom! Let us know more as you get used to it, or conduct other "experiments".

Fred

[george wilson]

I URGE you guys to buy a piece of 1/4" square W1 cold drawn(not precision ground-cold drawn is cheaper,and still very accurate for making a chisel. Heat the end up and hammer it while still red hot(orange hot is better yet). Heat up the other end. Hammer it or just grind it into a tang.

To harden,just have a gallon can of water. Room temperature is fine. Too cold a quench increases the chance of warping. Heat it uo to orange color and hold it vertical and quench. You need only heat up about 1" of the flared end. Sand the top of the fishtail clean,so you can see the naked metal. Slowly heat the chisel to be a few inches from the future cutting edge. Let the brown color develop,and when it reaches the cutting edge,quench it again.

This is fun and a bit of adventure for the learner. But,after you have done this a few times,you will soon learn how to make special chisels and not have to buy them any more. You can make any special chisel you'd want,and be free of having to rely upon what you can buy. You can learn to control the hardness you'd like,not having to be at the mercy of store bought tools.

I might add that W1 and 01 do not decarb much at all. A2 does need protection from the air. But,you don't need to be concerned about A2 to make great tools. If you really want a bolster,saw a 1/8" thick disc off the end of a steel bar. Drill a hole the size of a square you want. File the hole into a square. Make the inside tapered to fitb the tang. Jam it on. It will not be going anywhere. File the edges down into an octagon. You can beat on it without worrying that the blade will recede into the handle. I don't bother with bolsters for push chisels.

[Bruce Haugen]

I only have a propane torch, George, which I don't believe will get steel up to a good forging or heat treating temperature. I've actually resisted getting into metal working. I can afford woodworking. I can't afford a metal shop, too.

[David Bassett]

I URGE you guys to buy a piece of 1/4" square W1 cold drawn....

George, thanks for the description, it's now on my list of things to try.

One question though, why W1? I've been told O1 is much easier to harden (I guess due to potential warping problems) and I've always understood they're otherwise similar. Does W1 have other advantages? Thanks!

[Tom Bussey]

I am a retired Tool and Die Maker and I spent 50 years machining tool steel. I am sure several of you have or have seen some of my precision grinding work on planes. And In those 50 years I also taught a two year tool and die course at a community collage for ten years. One of those coarse was a 3 credit course in heat treat. And you are opening a can of worms. Most home shops, including mine don't have even the torch to heat the steel to the correct temp. If you take it to orange you will be in the 1750 range which is to hot for W1, 01 heat treats at 1475 which is bright red. To hot and steel loses its ability to magnetize. Lots of other thing also happen. I have no experience with water hardening steel it was not one used in my line of work, But if using a torch on small O1 you have to have the heat going up in the steel if you get it red and it waits to long, even while red, before quenching it will not harden to what it needs to be.

Normally steel is brought into the austenite zone and allowed to soak for one hour per inch so if the block is 2 inches then 2 hours. I has to be done in an atmospheric furnace or wrapped in HT foil to keep it from de-carbing. If you heat any steel to even dull red you will see a black scale start to form, that is de-cerebration.

An old wives tail that you use a file to test for hardness, if it cuts it is not hard. But files are usually around 63 on a Rockwell C scale. if it if the part is Rock C 62 it will cut. Steel is supposed to harden higher, in a lab it does but in the shop it is a little lower. much like the gas milage on the window sticker and what you actually get when you are driving

As far as warping goes the steel has to go in straight as quickly as possible if flat or at an angle it will warp. One side will harden before the other causing the warp. Soak one side of a board with water and not the other and see what happens.

I also know that people do what they want to do so if you wish to forge W1 go for it. It is your time and money.

And one last thing. This response has nothing to do with the original post. If a person wishes to expound on heat treating tool steels he should do it in his own post.

[Derek Cohen]

This is the first fishtail chisel I made about 15 years ago (influenced by Rob Colman). The steel came from a derelict Witherby. The bevel is 20 degrees for pushing into corners of sockets. The chisel is just for cleaning up waste in corners.



Inspite if of the unusual handle, it was very comfortable to push.

The chisel was eventually retired after I acquired fishtails from Blue Spruce.

Regards from Perth

Derek