Hesitate to ask a sharpening question

[David Sloan]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

[Stanley Covington]

I had a lot of fun over the holiday break tuning up my older and newer planes. I did a lot of sharpening and that skill has significantly improved. There is definitely room for improvement. This forum has helped me as well as books/youtube etc. I use Norton stones progressing through 8K. My question is this. The higher grit stones are very expensive and I understand you can really polish the blades but do the experienced sharpeners feel that going to 12K,15K, 30 K produces a measurable improvement in edge performance. Thanks and as a newcomer to the Creek, I really enjoy this and the other Creek forums.

The performance of planes and chisels and other woodworking tools is so improved by sharp blades, and it is so satisfying to produce those sharp edges, that it is very easy to get carried away and spend inordinate amounts of time and money on stones and sharpening. Nothing wrong with that if you have the time and money and enjoy the process. But there are indeed points of diminishing returns in terms of both time and money, as I think your question implies.

Everyone will have different opinions, so I can only give you mine. My opinion is based on using mostly Japanese waterstones for many years, both the synthetic variety and the expensive natural finishing stones. My best finishing stone cost over US$500, so you can see I tend to get carried away. I admit it is not practical, but I don’t regret buying or using such stones.

If you want a cost effective, quickly produced, and superbly performing cutting edge, I believe #6,000 is more than good enough for striking chisels. Paring chisels and plane blades will benefit from some time on #8,000~#10,000 grit stones. The use of stones finer than this, while lots of fun, is not truly cost effective.

Stan

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with Stanley. I only go to 8000 and find my tools very adequately sharp. You do have to work both sides of the arris to the same grit - front and back.

Mike

[David Sloan]

Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks Mike and Stanley, I think I'll wait a while before buying a $500 stone! That would buy a couple of very nice new planes. One thing that I believe helped me get sharper edges than ever before was doing the Charlesworth back bevel with the ruler. Thanks again.

David:

Let me add one comment. This "ruler trick" has been debated ad nauseam, ab absurdo. I don't want to start up the debate again. But since you are relatively new at this, and since you are asking for advice, let me give you some more. it will be worth every penny you pay for it.

I urge you to not blindly follow my advice just because I tell you to, or because I make a convincing argument, but because you thoroughly understand what sharpening is, and have really thought through the long-term benefits of using the ruler trick or not.

The ruler trick works. Please figure out why it works. Make some drawings and analyze the long-term effects of using the ruler trick.

It is not a good long-term methodology for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a crutch that will prevent you from learning how to sharpen freehand. The same goes for sharpening jigs. This is not a good way to develop the most basic woodworking skill.

The second reason is that, while sharpening jigs reliably produce a nice, flat, very useful bevel that can then be worked freehand with no problems, the ruler trick creates a bevel on the back/flat of the blade that can only be properly re-sharpened using the ruler trick. Therefore, you must rely on the ruler trick always. Not tragic, but less than ideal.

So, when you use the ruler trick, the blade's back is messed up, and you do not develop the skills necessary to sharpen the blade's back without using the ruler trick.

Of course, the ruler trick is not a good idea for chisels.

Learn how to sharpen like a craftsman.

Stan

[Stewie Simpson]

excellent advice by Stanley.

Stewie;

[Marty Schlosser]

Stan,

I fully agree with your advice about never using the rular trick, but would carry it one step further: NEVER, EVER use it.

David:

Let me add one comment. This "ruler trick" has been debated ad nauseam, ab absurdo. I don't want to start up the debate again. But since you are relatively new at this, and since you are asking for advice, let me give you some more. it will be worth every penny you pay for it.

I urge you to not blindly follow my advice just because I tell you to, or because I make a convincing argument, but because you thoroughly understand what sharpening is, and have really thought through the long-term benefits of using the ruler trick or not.

The ruler trick works. Please figure out why it works. Make some drawings and analyze the long-term effects of using the ruler trick.

It is not a good long-term methodology for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is a crutch that will prevent you from learning how to sharpen freehand. The same goes for sharpening jigs. This is not a good way to develop the most basic woodworking skill.

The second reason is that, while sharpening jigs reliably produce a nice, flat, very useful bevel that can then be worked freehand with no problems, the ruler trick creates a bevel on the back/flat of the blade that can only be properly re-sharpened using the ruler trick. Therefore, you must rely on the ruler trick always. Not tragic, but less than ideal.

So, when you use the ruler trick, the blade's back is messed up, and you do not develop the skills necessary to sharpen the blade's back without using the ruler trick.

Of course, the ruler trick is not a good idea for chisels.

Learn how to sharpen like a craftsman.

Stan

[david charlesworth]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

The method is recommended by L-N, Rob Cosman, Chris Schwarz and Tom Fidgen to mention a few.

There must be many people who are enjoying the benefits.

David Charlesworth

[Robert Engel]

Marty,

Not intending to steer the thread toward Mr. Charlesworth's technique, my question is once using the ruler trick, why would it be necessary to re-flatten the back?

I also disagree re: it inhibits freehand sharpening skills. I've never viewed the back bevel as a way to allow sloppy honing or correct improper honing, just a way to improve an (already acceptable) edge.

[Stanley Covington]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

David Charlesworth

I don't remember asking a question, much less one that required an answer. All I saw was a rebuttal. The free exchange of opinions is what makes the forum valuable, so rebuttals are very welcome. Let each man judge for himself.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

Marty,

I refer you to the answer which I gave to Stan.

The method is recommended by L-N, Rob Cosman, Chris Schwarz and Tom Fidgen to mention a few.

There must be many people who are enjoying the benefits.

David Charlesworth

Don't feed the trolls.

Marty's a normite, and probably just trying to get even with us for pointing out how irrationally frothy his peeps get at the mere mention of SawStop.

Stan's a True Believer (tm). Nothing anybody says or does will get him to see perspectives beyond his own.

[Stanley Covington]

Don't feed the trolls.

Marty's a normite, and probably just trying to get even with us for pointing out how irrationally frothy his peeps get at the mere mention of SawStop.

Stan's a True Believer (tm). Nothing anybody says or does will get him to see perspectives beyond his own.

Please sir, can I have some more?

[Mel Fulks]

Please sir, can I have some more?

Stanley will be GREAT in our new production of OLIVER!!

[Patrick Chase]

Please sir, can I have some more?

It's so disappointing when people won't take the bait :-)

Seriously, I appreciate your in-depth articles esp about Japanese tools and techniques and learn a lot from you. I honestly think you have teeny blind spot around some specific techniques, and that you're pretty hard on David as a result, but then don't we all.

[Stanley Covington]

It's so disappointing when people won't take the bait :-)

Seriously, I appreciate your in-depth articles esp about Japanese tools and techniques and learn a lot from you. I honestly think you have teeny blind spot around some specific techniques, and that you're pretty hard on David as a result, but then don't we all.

What? Me not dive headlong after troll bait?

Allow me to give some background. I own all of Mr. Charlesworth's books and a couple of his DVD's. Based on those published works and his comments on this forum, I have great respect for him. He is analytical, logical, and always gives careful, well-reasoned explanations. He is a wonderful teacher with a charming personality and has a magnificent hairdo (I am as balde as is a coote). He does impressive work. If the opportunity presented itself, I would like to meet him. I have nothing against him.

I was impressed with his ruler trick upon reading about it, and used it for a year or so (IIRC) on my Bailey style planes. I found that it works. Unequivocally. That's why I always say "it works." But I have reservations about the long-term effects. I don't think this is "being hard" on Mr. Charlesworth, Patrick. It is only my opinion, and worth every penny you pay for it. A blind spot, you say? I suppose we all have those, but when it comes to the ruler trick, it is not blindness, but experience upon which I have based my opinions. I guess your experience has been different. That is allowed

Unlike mine, his opinion is recorded for posterity in books and DVD's, and is worthy not only of emulation, but cashy money. Indeed, I believe it has justifiably earned him more than a few pennies. There may even be an ROI at stake. So I understand why he vigorously defends his opinion. It is worthy of defense.

So we have differing opinions, but don't tell me to shutup.

To everyone who reads this I say, give Mr. Charlesworth's ruler trick a try, and judge for yourself. It has valid merits. But in the case of new guys, I have given warning that they should not let the development of their sharpening skills stagnate through dependency.

Stan

PS: I may be doing a large construction project in London again in a few years. If that happens, I would hope to give Mr. Charlesworth the opportunity to correct my ill-informed opinions in person. Should I wear a wig?