First table saw: new or used - questions about safety

[Chris Hachet]

After reading your post and all the replies, then going back and re-reding your post, here is what I noticed:
You have done a few small projects with good success.
You want to tackle a bigger project, a walk in closet.
You don't think you will have much use for a table saw in the future.
With all of that in mind, I'm not sure a table saw is what you need at this time. We all always want more tools, but I don't think a table saw, especially a portable one would be that helpful for the project you atr planning to do. The table and fence to blade space would be too small for most plywood cutting. What else would you be using it for on this project? Do you have a chopsaw? I would do this job with what you have, bask in the glory, then decide where you want to go from there. I see lots of ads for tools and other stuff that say used once then sat in the corner for years. My son and I built a full size pull down murphy bed with not much more than a makita hand held circular saw with a quality blade, straight edge, square, and palm sander.

Hence my suggestion for a track saw. Europeans are much more space challenged than we yanks, and they adore track saws. The best part of that approach is that you are not sinking capital into a second rate tool by buying a crappy table saw that will not be up to the tasks of more furniture/heavy carpentry/fine woodworking when it is called upon to do so.

A circular saw for rough cutting everything darned close and then a few quality used or affordable good quality new hand tools will get a whole lot done also. The $350-400 you could sink into a third or forth rate table saw could buy a few first rate hand tools...a decent front vise on the bench and you would be off to the races...

[Nick Decker]

I had the Dewalt saw and sold it, a lot because of the table size. Compared to a cabinet saw (which I still lust for but don't have room for) it had other limitations, but man, that table is scary small.

[Alex Mielko]

Thanks again for the replies. You guys are right. I am not going to jump into woodworking as a hobby or source of income. I am just looking at having a table saw (or more tools) as a time saver and convenience. I have built a jig for my circular saw but it looks like I am spending way more time thank I want measuring, clamping and supporting pieces to be cut. Yes, in the future a built-in closet is one project that I know I will dive into but if I have enough tools, I may tackle other projects down the road. We just bought a house and there are plenty of projects I can think of (mud room furniture, patio table and benches, small storage shed, etc). Plus my knees are not up to the task for crawling on the floor cutting sheets of plywood.

So lets forget for a moment about my limited budget, crappy used saws, small new Dewalts, etc. What would be decent entry level table saw (new or used) that would be good for occasional projects? Would $500-600 get me anything worth buying? Some of the track saws are in this price range and I still think table saw is more convenient. Unless I am totally wrong. Remember, I am a beginner in woodworking.

[Chris Hachet]

Thanks again for the replies. You guys are right. I am not going to jump into woodworking as a hobby or source of income. I am just looking at having a table saw (or more tools) as a time saver and convenience. I have built a jig for my circular saw but it looks like I am spending way more time thank I want measuring, clamping and supporting pieces to be cut. Yes, in the future a built-in closet is one project that I know I will dive into but if I have enough tools, I may tackle other projects down the road. We just bought a house and there are plenty of projects I can think of (mud room furniture, patio table and benches, small storage shed, etc). Plus my knees are not up to the task for crawling on the floor cutting sheets of plywood.

So lets forget for a moment about my limited budget, crappy used saws, small new Dewalts, etc. What would be decent entry level table saw (new or used) that would be good for occasional projects? Would $500-600 get me anything worth buying? Some of the track saws are in this price range and I still think table saw is more convenient. Unless I am totally wrong. Remember, I am a beginner in woodworking.

$500 would get you an older Unisaw that needed work, a decent used heavy duty contractors saw, a Dewalt or Makita Track saw, or a used Festool track saw.

You may want to rationalize the purchase differently-A used Powermatic 66 or Unisaw that did not need work or say a Grizzly 0715 or 1023 would be more $ (800-$1400) but could be resold down the line and much if not nearly all of your investment recaptured. It would also pay for itself the first time you and your wife were able to fix something yourself instead of calling a contractor.

Also, if you buy a used saw and spend more $, you may get accessories with the saw-I got really lucky when I got my craftsman saw, as it came with an Incra fence and $300 of extra blades....probably a grand if I had bought it separately. People get out of woodworking all of the time. Position yourself where you ahve cash, and wait for the right deal to come along. It won't be quick but it will be affordable.

You may want to google Ana White-she is a home maker from Alaska who builds a lot of things with minimal tools. Building things for a fraction of the cost of Ikea furniture from lumber yard materials could free up cash for tools.

Having stuff you built easily that looks good and that you use every day will also encourage you to build more things.

[scott spencer]

... Would $500-600 get me anything worth buying?

The full size new saws in that price range would be the Delta 36-725, Ridgid R4512, and similar Craftsman 21833. The Grizzly G0771 and G0771Z are more expensive, but offer cast iron wings, cabinet mounted trunnions, and full enclosure. These saws all have modern safety features and warranties.

Good used saws are always an option if the right deal comes along. From a glance of central and northern NJ, there doesn't appear to be a lot of great options right now. Here are a couple that are at least be worthy of some consideration IMO.
$140 - https://cnj.craigslist.org/for/5953865615.html - full size Craftsman 113 contractor saw with the better fence and a blade guard/splitter assembly
$250 - https://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/5976168221.html Ridgid 3612 or 2424.
$400 - https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/tls/5953700625.html - Another Cman 113 in nice shape. Not worth $400 IMO, but maybe $300.

[Chris Hachet]

The full size new saws in that price range would be the Delta 36-725, Ridgid R4512, and similar Craftsman 21833. The Grizzly G0771 and G0771Z are more expensive, but offer cast iron wings, cabinet mounted trunnions, and full enclosure. These saws all have modern safety features and warranties.

Good used saws are always an option if the right deal comes along. From a glance of central and northern NJ, there doesn't appear to be a lot of great options right now. Here are a couple that are at least be worthy of some consideration IMO.
$140 - https://cnj.craigslist.org/for/5953865615.html - full size Craftsman 113 contractor saw with the better fence and a blade guard/splitter assembly
$250 - https://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/5976168221.html Ridgid 3612 or 2424.

That craftsman looks like a pretty good deal actually. Used with the better fence and blade guard/splutter it could give years of decent service.

[Alex Mielko]

The $140 Craftsman saw is already sold (just got a reply from the seller). If not sold, I may check the Ridgid saw for $240 this weekend.

I really appreciate the recommendations. For the past few days I am browsing Craigslist and somehow totally missed the $140 saw. Most likely because I am not knowledgeable enough to know what to look for.

[andy bessette]

Don't waste your money on those cheap, new, lightweight saws. Look for a deal on a decent, used, tables saw. Someone on the forums recently bought a Unisaw for $200 IIRC. But, before I was able to afford Unisaws, I did fine work on an ancient Sears tilting table saw, which I have kept and have setup to do small, precision work (photo). Saws like these can be purchased for under $100.

In 40+ years as a professional woodworker I have never had a riving knife, splitter or blade guard on one of my table saws. The key is to use a carbide blade and properly adjust your fence (and use your head).

[Chris Hachet]

Don't waste your money on those cheap, new, lightweight saws. Look for a deal on a decent, used, tables saw. Someone on the forums recently bought a Unisaw for $200 IIRC. But, before I was able to afford Unisaws, I did fine work on an ancient Sears tilting table saw, which I have kept and have setup to do small, precision work (photo). Saws like these can be purchased for under $100.

In 40+ years as a professional woodworker I have never had a riving knife, splitter or blade guard on one of my table saws. The key is to use a carbide blade and properly adjust your fence (and use your head).

Neat old American made saw!

[Alex Mielko]

I also found this saw:

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/5982200021.html

According to the seller, fence is included but removed. It is only two towns over so easy to drive to even just to take a look.

[Lee Schierer]

You raise good points. I have an older style Craftsman TS without a splitter and I don't use the factory blade guard. I have an after market fence (Beismeyer) because the original fence was poor.

Kick back occurs infrequently at best. The key is a well tuned saw and operator attention.

You must have the blade aligned with the miter slot and the fence aligned to that miter slot. I use full kerf blades for both ripping (24 tooth) and crosscuts (60 tooth). Sharp blades will make the cut if you don't force them just fine at 1-1/2 Hp. I have never (that is in 40 years) had a single kick back on my TS when I used my feather boards. My original ones were home made wood feather boards with lots of little parallel cut fingers. I now use my Grip tite feather boards and they do a wonderful job of keeping boards down on the table and against the fence. I also use push sticks any time I do a rip cut. I still have all my fingers and they are all full length.
lsfence1.jpg.

Even with no history of kick backs I still do not stand where one could hit me if it did decide to happen.

[Chris Hachet]

I also found this saw:

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/tls/5982200021.html

According to the seller, fence is included but removed. It is only two towns over so easy to drive to even just to take a look.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Methinks you will have some fun with it if it winds up in your garage....

[Will Boulware]

Don't shy away from the craftsman 113 saws. Toss a good fence on one of those and they actually turn into a workable machine that's worlds better than any plastic jobsite saw. If you're not comfortable using a table saw, no amount of safety device installation is going to keep you "safe". A sawstop will happily launch a BORG 2x4 back at you if you don't have the sense to look at a board and realize it's full of tension and should be tossed in the burn pile. Go find someone to show you the ropes. Take a class. Find a mentor. Watch some YouTube. Plenty of ways to educate yourself now!

For the record, those microjig splitters work pretty well, and I hear great things about the SharkGuard where applicable, but don't rely on some miracle widget to keep you safe. Use your head. Learn a little bit about the material you're working with. If it looks funny, rip it on a band saw. Rip it with a 4 tpi Disston. Use your circular saw with a track jig. Or don't rip it at all.

Also, if you're not happy with your homemade circ saw jig but you don't want to spend a few hundred bucks on a tablesaw, have you thought about upgrading to one of those eurekazone kits? No personal experience with them, but they're cheaper than a tablesaw if you don't think you'll use it much going forward (but I bet you will).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I watched a guy cutting plywood on a saw with no fence, splitter, or riven knife. He has done it for years. I did not ask if he ever had a kickback or similar.

I had a nice table saw that had no splitter or riven knife. After a kickback, which hurt, I installed the MJ splitter, which seemed to work.

I am a strong proponent of the safety features, but, no matter what you do, be certain that you learn how to use the saw safely. Understand what causes kickback and how to avoid it. People used saws for years without those safety features. Some were injured, some still are injured each year. I am more risk intolerant than some. I sold my last saw for a great price to someone who has a lower risk threshold.

No matter what you choose to do, just be highly safety aware.

*** EDIT From Here

And I now own a SawStop....

[Wayne Lomman]

The saws pictured above are inherently unsafe. No guard means unsafe. Saws are being recommended that have no kickback if you use it properly and know what you are doing. Guess what? Alex says he doesn't have much experience! Surely the definition of freedom also means the right to freedom from bad advice. All I can hope for is that eventually this culture of taking risks with basic safety disappears as it has in most of the Western world. Cheers