Rubbing out?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I don't have the room to spray so all my finishes are applied by a brush. The most common finish I use is polyurethane but did finish one turned cherry table using Deft brushing lacquer. I buffed that out on my lathe using the same buffing wheels I use on my turnings. Currently I am repairing the finish on that table top where one of those plug-in liquid air fresheners got laid on it, tipped over and the oil leaked out damaging the finish.

My wife has requested two new end tables for our living room. I have drawn the plans using Sketchup and came to the decision this week to use cherry for the wood. I would prefer to use some type of varnish for the finish due to it's better wear characteristics.

Does anyone actually rubout their finishes? Do you do it manually or use a buffer? If you use a buffer, what type of buffer do you use?

[Prashun Patel]

I don't if I can help it.

I prefer a wiping varnish if I cannot spray. Sand to 600, wipe on a couple thin coats and stop when it the sheen is even. No running necessary.

[Andy Giddings]

+1 on Prashun's comments for any oil based finish. WB finishes I either spray or brush depending on size, but never rub out

[Edwin Santos]

I'm a big fan of rubbing out, but under certain circumstances. It's a great technique to learn.

However usually rubbing out involves a gloss finish that you would like to make flawless. Think of a humidor built out of a highly figured wood, or a accent table top that might have been french polished in the old days.

I've done it with shellac and also with oil based varnish. You would normally brush on your coats in order to build up the film (wiped on coats are thin). I then rub with a cork backed block using wet/dry silicon carbide sandpaper, first 600x then 1000x or 1500x. Use soapy water or Murphy's Oil Soap sprayed from a spray bottle for a lubricant. From there I use automotive rubbing compound then polish. All this is done by hand and when finished, the surface will be flawless, better than a sprayed finish. If you had a rotary or dual action buffer available, you could use it for the compound and polish steps. You might need sunglasses to be able to look at the finished surface. Stopping at a lower rung on this ladder would give you less gloss and more satin. The auto compounds and high grit sandpaper take the place of pumice and rottenstone as was done by the old timers.

There's more detail to this, I've only given you the Cliff's Notes.

For a couple of end tables I am with Prashun and Andy in their recommendation. But rubbing out a finish is fun and worth learning how to do for projects that warrant it.

[Brian W Smith]

We're probably 80% spray,20% brush.The latter being a touch more complex to explain.Of that 20,half is resto work,the other because some things just look nicer/warmer with the slight texture that only a brush can impart.Rarely would we brush if "flat" was the objective.And flat here is not in an axis or plane.Think level/smooth.A rifle stock shot with epoxy or auto urethane.It can be done in varying degrees of "orange peel"...to where it's more roundy little bumps,than typical OP that's flat topped bumps/slump.The intricacy of those along with traditional bow handles can be "flat" (smooth).When sprayed and looking for "flat",these are polished by hand.

Power is used for flattening larger,non complex shapes...a table top.We use DeWalt VS elec. right angle buffers.Most folks here run from DW's and go Makita,with a few using older equipment.

Now,one place that breaks a lot of rules is on custom mould profiles.Occasionally they are brushed,and hand rubbed....and don't/can't even explain it.Could show you.It has to do with how much and how well the finish lays down.These are usually,cornices and are often painted black or blackgreen on cleared or coloured(dyed) pcs.They can also be HIGHLY figured dyed species.So there's always exceptions.

If you can find a brick and mortar auto paint jobber....you need to visit.Look for squeegees used during wet sanding and polishing.The come in several different durometers.They are the bees knees as backing pads for flattening out finishes with sandpaper.And to a slightly lessor degree,squeegees.Also look for Duroblock(sp) rubber sanding blocks at the auto paint joint.They will spoil you!

[John TenEyck]

Brushed on varnish finishes were commonly rubbed out back in the day. I've done it and it's not hard. I've also done it on OB polyurethane and that works fine, too, as long as it has cured for a week or so. That's exactly what was on this little cherry top table that I rubbed out. The key with a poly varnish is to flatten the finish before you apply the last coat so that you don't cut through it when you rub it out, because if you do you likely will get witness lines from the separate layers.



There are lots of ways to go about it, but it need not be hard. For a little table like the one above, you can easily do it by hand with 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper on a rubber block to first flatten the finish. I use soapy dish water as a lubricant. You'll know it's flat when you have a uniform dull sheen. Then move up to 1000 grit. From here, if you want a satin finish, just rub it with 0000 steel wool with paste wax, then buff with a clean cotton cloth. If you want gloss, continue on with 1500 and 2000 grit, by hand, or on your ROS, again lubing with soapy water. When that's done, use auto polishing compound on a buffing pad on your ROS or car buffer.

John

[Alan Lightstone]

I've rubbed out a few finishes with varnish, but don't do it anymore as I had too many issues with witness lines.

If done very gently, after a long cure time (I waited a month for full cure with Waterlox), it can look beautiful, but I just don't do it anymore. Too finicky, and easy to screw up in my hands.

If you do it, I would make sure your last coat was quite thick to minimize the chance of sanding through it when rubbing it out, and hand sanding vs. machine sanding (too easy to sand through, even with very fine sandpaper).

[James Waldron]

I've rubbed out a few finishes with varnish, but don't do it anymore as I had too many issues with witness lines.

If done very gently, after a long cure time (I waited a month for full cure with Waterlox), it can look beautiful, but I just don't do it anymore. Too finicky, and easy to screw up in my hands.

If you do it, I would make sure your last coat was quite thick to minimize the chance of sanding through it when rubbing it out, and hand sanding vs. machine sanding (too easy to sand through, even with very fine sandpaper).

If you are trying to rub out Waterlux, you're living very dangerously because each layer of a wiped coating is so very thin. A hand rubbed finish works much better on a thicker layer, not so easily cut through, like a resin varnish or polyurethane. As mentioned above, leveling before the final coat is essential to good results and in high end work, I level every coat after the initial seal coat with 320 grit paper (used dry until the last one). That way, when the final coat is rubbed, there are no brush marks or other rough areas to sand through. Then wet sanding with 600 grit (wet with very slightly soapy water) produces the mat finish, continuing with finer paper to the desired level of gloss. John TenEyck has it just about right in his post above. Even as an old fart who grew up using pumice and rotten stone, I've learned that the new wet and dry paper is a LOT less messy (but a lot more expensive). I still use the old stuff occasionally, mostly with a soft sponge on detail work where paper is too uncontrolled for the appropriate look on edges, moldings, etc.

With one-part polyurethane, I'll agree that it's important to let it cure for +/- a week to make sure it's hard enough for rubbing out. On the other hand, I do a lot of work with two part polyurethane. It's so much harder and tougher that if you let it cure a week or longer, trying for a hand rubbed look is asking for trouble. I try to make sure that any hand rubbing is done after one day cure and finished within two days.

[Bill McNiel]

Jim,
Yes, I rub out finishes on many of my projects, especially custom commissions. I will invite the client to join me in my shop while I rub out a portion of their project and they get to choose the sheen they desire. This eliminates a significant percentage of potential issues and allows the client to have a first hand voice in the finish of their piece.

I use MicroMesh exclusively for all rub out projects, it is virtually idiot proof. This product was originally developed for eliminating scratches in airplane windows and allows one to rub out to any finish between matte and very high gloss. It is available in 3x5 double sided pads, 8x10 or maybe 8 1/2 x 11 sheets, and 5" diameter H&L foam backed pads for use with a ROS. Check out the product on line or send me a PM (I have no connection with the company other than being a VERY happy customer).

For WaterLox, I apply the finish with a foam brush and then wait for atleast a month before rubbing out.

Just what has worked for me - Bill