Why buy European machines?

[John Sincerbeaux]

Completely agree with Dan and Jim's comments.

[Darcy Warner]

I do not find Euro machines to be trouble free. In fact I seen to have to repair more issues on German an Italian machines than I do on older American stuff.

I have owned stuff from everywhere but China

[mark mcfarlane]

I do not find Euro machines to be trouble free. In fact I seen to have to repair more issues on German an Italian machines than I do on older American stuff.

I have owned stuff from everywhere but China

I subscribe to the Felder and Minimax groups and agree that 'trouble free' is probably an exaggeration.

[David Kumm]

Felder and Minimax are not exactly high end. Their best stuff is very good, but not Martin, Hoffmann, or Kolle. You can't lump all models together based on place of birth. Some of the Euro machines mentioned here are not really Euro and the middle models of Felder and MM are kind of like Mercedes C class vs a Martin S class. Dave

[Alex Snyder]

My slider was a safety purchase for me primarily. My wife got wise to the dangers of table saws and asked me to get something safer. Obviously the SawStop was a consideration, but I mill my own lumber and work with some freshly milled stuff from time to time. The benefits of easily ripping live edge boards is a plus. And I have found the Hammer K3 to be much easier to setup and realign than my old Powermatic saw. Trouble free is not a phrase I'd throw at it, but it isn't any more finicky than the Powermatic was.

I am now considering replacing my Powermatic jointer with a Felder jointer/planer combo mostly because of the 16" capacity, without taking up more room in the shop. I'll consider the Jet and Rikon versions too, but will probably save my pennies to go Felder.

My shop seems to be growing more and more European tools and that has nothing to do with nationality. I find Festool to be an incredible system, Wera to be superior screw drivers/wrenches for my needs, Bosch to fit a few niche spots, and of course the Hammer I mentioned earlier. But Dewalt remains my go-to battery-powered system, Woodpeckers my favorite measuring tools, and Bessey clamps it all together. And then there is Powermatic helping me with final milling and drilling. But I'm not exactly sure what country Powermatic is really considered a part of anymore?

[Frederick Skelly]

Felder and Minimax are not exactly high end. Their best stuff is very good, but not Martin, Hoffmann, or Kolle. You can't lump all models together based on place of birth. Some of the Euro machines mentioned here are not really Euro and the middle models of Felder and MM are kind of like Mercedes C class vs a Martin S class. Dave

Well, some of that confusion is just the OP's (my) ignorance showing. Sorry. What I was thinking of were tablesaws in the range of $5000 and up bought by hobbyists. (For me, that's a lot of money, so I'll just use that amount as an example.)

Edit: And again, please understand I don't intend any criticism - what hardworking, successful people spend their money on isn't my business.

I'm getting a lot of insights I didn't have before, reading all the responses, so thanks everyone.

Fred

[Andy Giddings]

Like Dan, I have a Hammer C3 combo machine. Certainly not high end as David mentions. For me the combo machine works very well given my limited space. I used a standard table saw for years and was happy with everything about it apart from cutting sheet goods. A slider makes sheet goods a lot easier and, as others have said, saw operations safer generally. I think the only way to understand why people buy expensive Euro brands (sliders, JP, combos) compared to the widely available regular brands is to get your hands on one. Not for everyone but I'd never switch back

[Brian W Evans]

For me, the (very recent) decision to go with European machines comes down to two things:

First, I started out using cheap tools and found that to be a very frustrating experience due to difficulty achieving / maintaining alignment, lack of power, parts breaking / flexing / etc. Eventually, after too many 'upgrades' to somewhat more expensive tools, I decided that a hobby should be enjoyable. What a revelation, right? I did a lot of research, waited a few years, watched a lot of videos, and ultimately decided that a sliding table saw was for me. I love my MM SC4 because it does what I want and need it to do, and does it well. There is no frustration - only enjoyment - and that is the crux of the matter.

Second, I had some practical considerations for choosing a slider. All of these are outlined elsewhere in this thread or others, but the most important consideration is that my sons like to work with me in the shop and I wanted something that didn't put them in the path of kickback or give them a reason to put their hands near a spinning blade. I know that it is entirely possible to use an American-style cabinet saw safely, but I think the European arrangement is better from a safety standpoint.

On a related note, there are some on this forum who look at those of us who buy expensive tools and gripe about people "having more money than sense." I understand this point of view because the world is full of people who spend money on things I think are insane. But I would respectfully say that we are talking about two different things here - some of us are talking about the most economical way to accomplish a task and therefore don't see the value in spending money that isn't absolutely necessary. Others among us are talking about the enjoyment of the task itself, which is a very different goal. There is a lot that both camps have in common, and therefore a lot of we can talk about and share with each other. Sorry if this was off-topic.

Fred, thanks for starting this discussion.

[Michael Koons]

Jumping in late but I'm one of those buyers who went through the same thought process and asked the same questions as the OP. I think the answer is different for different tools. My first purchase was a MM slider. At the time, I needed to upgrade a contractor saw and wanted to go very high end mostly for quality and power purposes. For the hobbyist, it's almost "all or nothing." I was looking at things like PM and it was around $4k for a nice cabinet saw. When I asked on this forum, it was introduced to euro saws and was intrigued. I made the decision to buy the MM and paid around $8k. It was probably the best WW purchase I made. I ended up loving the accuracy, the repeatability, the flexibility and the power. To the point where now, I'd like to upgrade to a 3ph, longer slider machine.

With the BS and J/P it was a different process because those don't fundamentally change the way you work like a sliding table saw does. But I was going from an 8" jointer and 13" benchtop planer. When it was time to upgrade, getting 16" jointers is hard with most hobbyist brands. The other thing for me is that I wanted to get away from the Chinese made machines. That's a personal thing that has to do with quality perceptions on my part.

For me it was personal preference and how I want to work doing an activity that I absolutely love.

[rudy de haas]

It's a no brainer: quality pays - and right now the high end of the quality range in the upper end of the hobbyist eqpt market comes from Germany or Austria. i.e. if you can afford it, this is the stuff to get. Personally, I can't afford it and can't justify the cost given my limited skills and the small amount of work I need to get done with each tool - but I'd get Hammer class tools in a heartbeat if it made work and financial sense.

Euro quality isn't magic, it's a regional economic strategy adopted in the 1960s in response to Japan's emergence as a volume producer of low quality products (like China today). At the time west Germany decided they had a skill advantage over the Japanese and pursued a national quality strategy whose fruits include today's Hammer combos.

However.. we're in a time of probable rapid change. In particular, the rapid evolution of robotics in manufacturing is driving a quality revolution in the United States that sets aside the labor cost advantage indochina relies on to sell product. I predict, therefore, that the world's best power tools will, by about 2022, come from the United States - not Germany, and not Taiwan.

[Peter Aeschliman]

To Dan's point, if I were starting completely from scratch today but with the commitment to woodworking that I now have, i would buy a 5 function Hammer machine (C3 31 comfort). For the same functionality and quality, it would be hard to spend less on separate machines. I know it's not perfect or "high end" but they sure are nice machines for the money.

But when I started out, I didn't know how much I would like woodworking. So plunking down $10k+ from the get-go would have been extremely foolish. Plus I didn't know what on earth a combo machine was at the time. So I did like most woodworkers and bought budget-level machines to start with, purchased one at a time incrementally.

I now have a shop that is stocked with all of the machines I need, and have upgraded over time. SS PCS, combo jointer planer, etc. I would have to sell my machinery at a steep loss in order to buy one of these machines now, only to get effectively the same functionality. So I just can't justify it.

This is why I always advise newbies to buy used machines. Because you can usually sell them for what you paid if you want to upgrade.

[John TenEyck]

It seems pretty simple to me. If you want a high quality machine you either buy an old American one or a new foreign one. Sadly, nobody in the US designs of makes anything better than the Unisaw/Powermatic type machines for the hobby market. The Europeans do, and there are some pretty good ones made in Asia, too. The Europeans have the engineering and manufacturing skills to build pretty high quality machines that are priced for well healed hobbiests. And they are likely to stay in the lead. Their combined management, engineering, and manufacturing skills are built around building high quality stuff at a reasonable price. There are some good machines made in Asia, too, but you have to look harder. The US? Can't think of one. And that's not likely to change. There are some great engineers here, some very good manufacturing, too. Focused, skilled management teams, however; not many, and none in the woodworking business. Until something changes the Europeans are likely to offer the best machines for well healed hobbiests.

I have a MM 14" J/P that I bought used for a reasonable price. If you want something wider than 12" who makes one for the hobby market? Europeans. If you want a sliding table saw, who makes one for the hobby market? Europeans and Asians. I doubt an American company is going to change the dynamic as the US market by itself isn't large enough to justify the investment. The Europeans have a large advantage in this regard because they have a fairly large domestic market. What they sell here is a bonus. The opposite isn't going to happen.

John

[Larry Edgerton]

Its a funny thing, a lot of the people that criticize me for what I pay for tools have a couple of snowmobiles in the garage, a boat in the back yard, and a motorcycle or two in the mix. All of which would buy a nice tool that lasts a lifetime. Its all about perspective.

20 years ago I bought a Artic Cat Sno-Pro 440 and a SCM planer with a Tersa head the same year, they cost about the same money. The snowmobile is long gone, two years and it was worn out, but that planer is still in my shop, and I still get kick out of its accuracy every time I use it. It will last me until I do not want to work with wood any more. At that time it will still be worth at least half of what I paid for it, and it will have contributed to hundreds of thousands of income.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I kind of take things with a grain of salt... especially when people start talking about machinery. WHat is "cheap" (quality, and/or cost) to one will be very good quality, or very expensive, to another.

Case in point. In our old shop we had a Sicar (Italian) 10' slider. My father bought new in 1988 for about $12,000 IIRC. Still running in the shop I sold back in 2010. I bought a new Griggio 10' slider in 2010, for my new shop, for $15,000 plus another $5,000 for the Tigerstop Tigerfence. $20,000 saw that should outlast me, in the business I am in (general woodworking shop, ie, cabinets and furniture and millwork) Im 46 and plan to work another 20 to 25 years.

The shop closest to me bought a new tricked out Felder slider two years ago for $45,000. So some say that isnt a top of the line saw... should have gotten a Martin. I say, the guy pulling in approx 2 million in sales per year (they do only cases for kitchens) with the saw running full shift daily) thinks his saw is pretty darn good. Too much $$ in my case, I spent half that and my saw still cuts as square, and as accurately I believe (but doesnt have a fancy screen, power tilt or cross cut stops).

Similarly, my Cantek (Taiwan) equipment wasnt what I'd call cheap. But, my planer and jointer for instance processes between 12 and 20 thousand Bfm a year (depends what were doing more of - cases or woodwork) and its just "cheap Asian stuff" to some, but cost me $20,000 which for a smaller shop is a sizeable investment, and it certainly does what we need it to do. The planer will hold an accuracy to within a thousandth (seriously) over the whole 20" and the electronic setting is quick and always right on.

I could have bought a European made planer only and spent more than my 16" jointer, and 20" planer combined. But it wouldnt make me any more $$, and I can't see being mare satisfied with a planer ans/or jointer than what I am now.

Our old Sicar shaper is running daily, after approching 30 years of use. No bearings, nothing... just cleaning and lubrication.

Some guys want or need the "best" in bearings, the heaviest castings, etc. All of which is fine if you have the finaces and want. If I werent trying to run a profitable business, I'd get stuff I don't really need but want, as well. But, again - take it for my opinion only - as someone who has been in the woodworking business since my early twenties, and grew up in the trade since childhood - there are a LOT of very profitable shops, making some very good quality product just fine, without any Martin machinery and even the Taiwan made stuff too..

[Joe Calhoon]

Andrew makes some good points, high end machinery is not necessary to make a profit or do quality work for that matter. I got our business profitable and built our reputation with the basic Delta machines and later used American and Euro iron. I do confess to being a tool nut and do appreciate and enjoy using quality machinery. I can tell a difference from some of my previous machinery.

It depends on what type of machines we are talking about. I believe the US and some companies from the East make as good of CNC routers as what is available from Europe. When you are talking classic machines (jointer, planer, shaper, saws and etc) I think Euro is hard to beat. A lot of it is the engineering and function. The US made some heavy duty classic type machines that were from an era of mass production of wood products. Pretty much the design and engineering did not change from before WW2 till most of the companies went out of business in the 60s, 70s and later. These machines will outlast any of newer euro machines for sure but lacking in function, safety and engineering. I do like the old US iron for what I consider school shop machines, sanders, mortisers drill press etc. Hard to find new machines of this type that are as good as the old ones. The market is different for woodworkers now. The days of setting machines for long production runs is gone. Being versatile and efficient small batch production is where the pro shops have to be. Hobby shops also need easy change over and safety is always a factor.

There is a wide range of quality and price points from the Euro producers depending on your needs. If I had a large shop with a lot of employees I would probably in most cases not use Martin machines. A lot of the refinements and features would be wasted on a semi skilled workforce.

I get around to a lot of shops and like to try different machines. Here is one example of higher engineering from my Martin jointer. I have used a lot of old iron jointers and modern Italian jointers but have never found a jointer fence that moves as easy or stays as accurate as this one. It can be moved one handed and goes 0 to 45 degrees with one hand operation. Here is a picture with the back fence cover removed.
Jointer fence 1.jpg
Jointer fence 2.jpg