American V/S Euro Table Saws

[Jay Brewer]

Hey everyone, I already own a Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw, and cringe everytime i have to process sheet stock.I am going to be purchacing a Euro Sliding Table Saw very soon, I know they are better than American Saws. My concern is the justification of the price. Is the actual Table saw (not counting the slider) that much better than say a Delta Uni-Saw?

A nice Delta Uni-saw $2000.00 with a better fence than most Euro Saws

Hammer K3 Preform with 8ft. slider w/o scoring $7700.00

Do you think the sliding table and outrigger is worth $5700.00 or am i missing something ? Thanks

[Jim Becker]

Your comparing crab apples to granny smiths other than they are table saws. Different features, power, etc., as well as functionality--the cost difference is not just for the slider and outrigger! You seem to be concerned about processing sheet stock and for that the Euro slider excels. You have to judge if the cost difference is meaningful to you and then do some careful shopping to decide which product from Hammer, MiniMax and others is best for your needs.

[Andy Hoyt]

Jay - check out this recent thread that caught my attention

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=25425

[lou sansone]

I am not sure how much space you have, but if you have at least 20' x 15' feet to dedicate to a real euro slider ( 8 to 10 foot slider ) then there are quite a few out on the secondary market for 30 to 40 cents on the dollar. I just looked at a smaller scm slider ( with the scoring attachemnt ) that only has a 52" throw ( great for crosscutting 4x8's but not ripping them using the slider ) that was in very decent shape. it was going for 3k.

lou

[Gary Curtis]

Or check this thread. Especially the comments near the end from Format saw owners.

sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24449&highlight=KUFO

[Gary Curtis]

This might work better ----
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24449

I wrote the question on SMC. Based on answers and some emails with responders, I bought a General (of Canada) 350 with sliding table. These responders don't own the General w/slider but have used it. And both had experience with the Altendorf and Martin, to which they favorably compared the General. Rather than shoot my mouth off, I'll wait a month after I take delivery to make recommendations to others. My total package came to $3500 w/o blades. The price of the European models was beyond my ability. Look at the weight of a Felder or a Knapp or Mini-Max and you get a hint of where the expense is. Knapp ensures the flatness and stability of tops by doing all welding UNDER WATER to eliminate heat stressing.

The issue is, can you afford such levels of quality?

Gary Curtis

[Richard Wolf]

Jay, I am constantly playing this over in my mind just as you are. Top quality and top price vs. useable quality and reasonable price.
Let me say first that I do not own a euro slider, I have a Powermatic 66 with a large outfeed table, (4' x 6') and use a roller stand for infeed. While I don't process sheet goods daily, but when I do this set up works very well for me.
I think it really depends on how much money you have to spend on your equipment. I know alot of woodworkers that have $10,000 and up sliders, I think the quality of a cabinet from my shop will look just like a cabinet from their shop, so what is the justification? Speed, maybe. Safety, maybe. Ease of use, maybe.
I don't know that you are concerned with speed. Everyone is concerned with safety, but to what lenght, everyone doesn't own a Sawstop. Ease of use, at what price. Like you said, my PM66 is $2,500 vs a MiniMax 9' slider for $12,000. None of the reasons above could justify spending $10,000 which could be spent on all the other stuff you may need.
It is a very difficult choice that we all have to make. No different than buying a Honda or a BMW, they both get you there, just depends on the type of ride you are looking for.

Believe me, I could argue for the other side as well and have some Minimax machines.
If you have the money and want the quality, spend the money, but don't feel that you must have it or you will never be able to produce quality work.

Just my $.02

Richard

[Jay Brewer]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond

[lou sansone]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond

I tend to agree with you on this one, but it is useless to argue the point since we really can't set the prices for new machines. But we can look for them for cents on the dollar on the secondary market. happy hunting


BTW there is a nice mini max s 300 w slider on that internet auction site that I can't mention here because it is against the rules. but I am sure you can figure it out. the price seems very low. might be worth taking a look

lou

[Roy Wall]

I'll pose another option for you.
Guys - If I am way off base, let be know.....

A lot of WW'ers on this forum rave about the "EZ" or the "Festool" system for cutting sheet goods.........why not check out this route??? Then you just have $500-1000 invested in these systems that seem to be quite good at this sort of thing--- Plus you get to keep your TS!

[Joe Spear]

I agree about the Festool circular saw and guide. I have cut up sheets of plywood for large bookcases with the Festool, and they came out exactly the sizes I needed with no adjustments on the tablesaw. There are also other guided circular saw systems that may do the trick. Even if you use a regular circular saw with a clamped straight edge, you can at least break down the sheets to sizes that are manageable on the tablesaw.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks for the reponces, I know the Euro is a better design. What i was wondering is what makes the Euros cost so much more than than an American Saw, besides the sliding table and a riveing knife. there is no doubt it is far superior in handeling sheet goods, that dosent make it worth $8000 and beyond

Jay,
An American style CS is nothing more than a steel box, a top with a hole in it and a motor hung in it attached to a blade. It has been the same design since what the 1920's?? The EFSTS is much more "complex" It consists of a welded frame usually a "T" shaped base, a large solid cast iron top, usually two motor (one for the main blade & one for the scorer), a very large trunion, a extruded aluminum carriage system & slider top with guide ways, bearing (linear or roller), crosscut fences & rip fences......... you get my point.

Some people think they are just for sheetgoods, which they are simple the best at, but they equally excell at soild stock also. You can rip with the slider, or the rip fence and still be able to crosscut at the same time. They keep you far away from the blade, are easier on your back, are extremely accurate, versatile and just plain fun to use. I you ever use one you will laugh at a American CS and will never go back.

They are much more expensive and good things always are. Only you can justify the cost, whether you are a pro or going pro, have some money and like nice tools or simple like the safety & accuracy they provide. If someone says "oh I am not going to pay for a safer saw" then just ask someone who has had an accident and let them tell you how much there digits are worth to them.

There also are many companies and saws to choose from. My advice is not only look at the saw but the company that stands behind it.

[Chris Giles]

Jay,
I'm big on euro-sliders because I've had an SCM since I opened for business 15 years ago. The advantages are as follows:

-A true industrial quality machine, everything is heavier, stronger and more accurately machined.

-Much safer; My employees love to use it because there hands never get near the blade. Never an injury in 15 years!

-Squareness of panels quickly becomes a non-issue. Once it is set up, everything is perfectly square, all the time. You don't have to finesse the panel one way or another to get good results.

-Speed; Sheet stock is very heavy and this can really slow you down. I can complete a cutlist for a dozen cabinets in one morning by myself, no sweat.

-Capacity; You know how you occasionally have to crosscut that 12' long 3"thick by 16" wide hunk of White Oak? No problem. As long as it doesn't tip the saw over, it will cut it easily and perfectly square.

In my shop, I still have a 10" saw to supplement the slider. Operations like dadoing, grooving, smaller angle cuts, and most of my ripping are better left to the smaller saw to save on set-up time. Also, the slider is right tilt, and the 10" is left, so we've got both bases covered. I have 10' roller conveyers inboard and outboard on the slider to futher assist with sheet stock. If you are committed to woodworking for a living and have the room and budget, get the slider. It will put many times more money in your pocket over time, than it will cost you up front.

[lou sansone]

Jay,
An American style CS is nothing more than a steel box, a top with a hole in it and a motor hung in it attached to a blade. It has been the same design since what the 1920's?? The EFSTS is much more "complex" It consists of a welded frame usually a "T" shaped base, a large solid cast iron top, usually two motor (one for the main blade & one for the scorer), a very large trunion, a extruded aluminum carriage system & slider top with guide ways, bearing (linear or roller), crosscut fences & rip fences......... you get my point.

Some people think they are just for sheetgoods, which they are simple the best at, but they equally excell at soild stock also. You can rip with the slider, or the rip fence and still be able to crosscut at the same time. They keep you far away from the blade, are easier on your back, are extremely accurate, versatile and just plain fun to use. I you ever use one you will laugh at a American CS and will never go back.

They are much more expensive and good things always are. Only you can justify the cost, whether you are a pro or going pro, have some money and like nice tools or simple like the safety & accuracy they provide. If someone says "oh I am not going to pay for a safer saw" then just ask someone who has had an accident and let them tell you how much there digits are worth to them.

There also are many companies and saws to choose from. My advice is not only look at the saw but the company that stands behind it.

not to start a fight here paul.... but I just did a pretty detailed autopsy of a SCM s15 slider that I was thinking about buying and and it is no different than my rockwell RT-40, except it has a scoring motor added ( in the same hole as is in the RT-40 casting) The trunions are exactly the same, as is the riving knife attachment and the blade spindle. the raising and lowering is exactly the same size screw, etc. The only difference is that they chopped off the right hand side of the base and stuck a slider on it. The slider was pretty poorly engineered and unconfortable to use. Having said that, it does not mean that the mm, felder, martin, or the other european saws are the same as the scm, in fact I know that they are not. The point was that not all sliders are created equal and some are not much better than the plain old american TS.

[John Renzetti]

not to start a fight here paul.... but I just did a pretty detailed autopsy of a SCM s15 slider that I was thinking about buying and and it is no different than my rockwell RT-40, except it has a scoring motor added ( in the same hole as is in the RT-40 casting) The trunions are exactly the same, as is the riving knife attachment and the blade spindle. the raising and lowering is exactly the same size screw, etc. The only difference is that they chopped off the right hand side of the base and stuck a slider on it. The slider was pretty poorly engineered and unconfortable to use. Having said that, it does not mean that the mm, felder, martin, or the other european saws are the same as the scm, in fact I know that they are not. The point was that not all sliders are created equal and some are not much better than the plain old american TS.

Hi Lou, There is a good chance that your old RT-40 was made by SCM in Italy. SCM used to make some equipment for Delta/Rockwell: I've seen shapers and bandsaws with the Delta tag that were made by SCM. Delta had a slider a number of years ago that might be exactly like the S15 you looked at.
One question was this S15 a true format type slider where the sliding table edge goes next to the blade or was it simply a saw with a sliding table attached to where the extension table would be.
Actually SCM is the parent company of SCMI and Minimax. The SCMI line now is real heavy duty industrial stuff.
And you are correct some of the older smaller sliders were really not any better than the Americn cabinet saws. But for somebody like Jay who will be processing some sheet goods, his increase in productivety and accuracy will probably increase enough to have a payback on the saw in a couple of years. A good friend whose work as appeared in Arhcitectural Digest was interviewed a few years ago about going from a cabinet saw to a slider (in his case it was a used Altendorf). He said that he felt his productivety not to mention increased accuracy went up nearly 50% with the slider.
Getting back to cost, the slider does represent a good bit of the cost of the saw. On a good slider designing and building the sliding table portion that will remain smooth and accurate year after year does take some doing. These things aren't light. I think the sliding table and carriage on my machine is in the 800lb range. On the smaller Hammer that Jay mentioned it is probably about 400lb.
BTW, I know a guy in CO that is selling his older Martin T-75 to buy a new T-73. Are you interested?
take care,
John