Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- can someone comment on strengths/weakness?

[Matt Lau]

I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error.

I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong?

I'd like your insights.



Here's mine:
- Japanese
Great blades, sharp, high performance, closer feel to the wood
Technique sensitive, expensive, high maintenance (unstable soles)
Imho, the saws make most sense in pulling on tension-- especially joiners saws.

- Western
Okay blades (hock, LN, LV). Sharp. Good to high performance. Less maintenance due to metal bodies
Con- finicky setup sometimes (older Stanley combo planes). Many newer manufacturer s have poor quality (groz, Stanley)
My understanding is Western spokeshave is superior to Japanese version.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm a novice with Japanese tools, but I'll tell you what I've seen so far, as a starting point.

Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke and people usually pull their planes. Western saws and planes are the opposite. I dont know of any pros/cons here - my guess is it's a "what you're used to" thing. Both certainly work.

My Dozuki saws have no "set" and the teeth are impulse hardened. The pro is that the kerf is very small and the saw stays sharp a long time. The con is that I don't think they are readily sharpenable. You replace the blade. (There may be higher quality saws that are sharpenable - I dont know.)

A big pro for me is that my Dozuki saws are great for fine work and small parts. I think that's because the tooth count is high, plus the lack of "set".

[Noah Magnuson]

I would hesitate to claim actual sharpness is superior in one or the other. Hardness, brittleness, sharpenabilty, etc. often differ between the western and Japanese chisels and planes (can't speak for current Chinese metallurgy), but the level of sharpness can be achieved with either. It is often an issue of whether you tend to work a lot of very hard woods or not whether one functions better or not, but the same can be said even for the many different "western" tool metals.


I definitely find it is worth having a small kit of Japanese saws regardless, and I find the Japanese saws function extremely well in certain cases for me like flush and trim cuts and very fine work, but I really like my western saws for most things and I seem to keep the cut true more easily. I have no experience with Japanese planes. I like my PM-V11 chisels and can't imagine much difference in function between good western and good eastern chisels.

[Matt Lau]

I would hesitate to claim actual sharpness is superior in one or the other. Hardness, brittleness, sharpenabilty, etc. often differ between the western and Japanese chisels and planes (can't speak for current Chinese metallurgy), but the level of sharpness can be achieved with either. It is often an issue of whether you tend to work a lot of very hard woods or not whether one functions better or not, but the same can be said even for the many different "western" tool metals.


I definitely find it is worth having a small kit of Japanese saws regardless, and I find the Japanese saws function extremely well in certain cases for me like flush and trim cuts and very fine work, but I really like my western saws for most things and I seem to keep the cut true more easily. I have no experience with Japanese planes. I like my PM-V11 chisels and can't imagine much difference in function between good western and good eastern chisels.

Good points.

I'm definitely a novice here. I guess that I started with some Japan Woodworker "house brand" white steel chisels a while back, and found they were much better than the hardware store chisels at the BORG.
Later, I got some used Matsushige white steel chisels off ebay, which were much, much sharper.
Then, Stan Covington helped me get my first real set of good chisels...which were even better yet! Thanks, Stan!

Over the years, I've tried some ebay chisels--Berg, Witherby, Swan, Butcher, etc...not bad, but the Japanese stuff seems to hold a keener edge.
I have a beautiful paring chisel from Blue spruce-- beautiful and balanced, but the edge isn't close as nice as the Japanese stuff.
Ditto for the Hock Irons, A2 LN iron, and the LV PM-13 irons as well...they work, but not as nice as the Japanese stuff.

This is more pronounced trying to plane end grain spruce.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Matt,

- Japanese
My understanding is the Japanese include more of their personal philosophy in their woodworking. One example is of pulling their tools instead of pushing their tools. The way it was explained to me is cutting the wood removes some of the spirit of the wood. The use of a pull stroke of saws and planes is intended to direct this spirit into the worker so the spirit may reside in them and expand their spiritual being.

One of my preferences in hand tools is that it feels comfortable in my hand. Most hooped chisels are not comfortable for me. This is especially true when paring if the top of the chisel is mashed over from hammer blows.

My Japanese pull saws still see some use but my sawing with western saws has become much better. To me the thinness of the pull saw blades requires a bit more discipline to keep to the line.

- Western
There is something available in almost any price range. Of course on the low end of the price scale one is either buying poor quality (also available at higher prices) or one has to do a bit of fettling (again something that may be required on a higher priced item).

Are there new Japanese combo planes? Is this possibly a comparison of things that do not actually compare?

A Japanese plane hasn't yet made it into my shop or hands. Are they less finicky to set up than a western wooden plane? Once one of my bench planes is set up, it stays how it was set until the next time the blade needs some work. My LN #62 had a nick in the blade recently. It took more time to give it a light grinding and honing than it did to get it back to work.
My planes are mostly Stanley. They were plentiful when my first planes were bought and it was my decision to keep to one maker for better part interchangeability.

As said above, my comfort factor when using a tool is important. This is why most of my chisels are socket chisels. It is easy to make my own handle for a socket chisel.

Our feelings about our craft and the tools we use is different for each of us. It is good to investigate different avenues to the same destination. Find what feels good to you and stay with it.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I'm pretty new to the Neanderthal thing, and have been slowly learning through trial an error.

I've found that Japanese vs Western vs Chinese tools- have various pros and cons. But I'm not sure if I'm wrong?

I think that you're making the mistake of trying to "objectify" what are at heart very subjective preferences.

Take for example your remark that Japanese "saws make the most sense in pulling on tension". I know a lot of people (including myself) who have a strong subjective preference for sawing on the push stroke. It's probably worth noting that basically all saw traditions started out cutting on the pull stroke.

Just pick what works for you, but don't waste time trying to convince yourself or anybody else that it's "best" or even that it has specific objective strengths. That's a fool's errand.

[Stewie Simpson]

The OPs proposition that all western planes have metal bodies is a misnomer.

[Derek Cohen]

Matt, the factors that first comes to my mind is design (and design philosophy), use, and maintenance. The Japanese and Western tools are almost diametrically opposite in most respects.

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents. My experience with Chinese designs is more limited, and so - design-wise- they might be inbetween.

Japanese saws are, as you know, designed to be pulled. This way the plates remain in tension, which is necessary as they are very thin. Their teeth can be made very small and high in number which, with the minimal set, allows them to leave a finish quite unmatched by anything the West has to offer (and at a comparable price). The downside is that the saws are fragile and not for the heavy-handed. Western saws are made to be used roughly (I am not suggesting this!). Their thicker plates are needed as they are pushed instead. Larger teeth and more set equate to a rougher finish (I have filed saws with teeth to 20 tpi and set then accordingly, but the finish is no where in the same class).

It is possible to purchase Japanese saws quite cheaply with a performance that is simply superb. I am very happy with the Z-saw range. The downside to these saws is that the teeth are impulse hardened, which means they cannot be sharpened, and instead are replaced. Japanese saws that are sharpenable are possibly do-able by the user (I do not know of anyone who sharpens their own), and more commonly are sent back to Japan to a specialist saw sharpener. This can be both inconvenient and costly. Westen saws are easier to sharpen (larger teeth, more easily available files, and softer steel).

There is a similar issue with blades for planes and chisels. The laminated blades from Japan, even the cheap end of the range, far out perform their Western cousins. The steel is not fancy - high carbon steel - but the hammerising process orients the grain, they are hardened well above Western blades, and then any tendency to chip is controlled by adding a softer layer (usually cast iron). The solid steel blades of the West are cheaper to construct, and buy, but inevitably lack the edge retention of the Japanese blade. There are Western blades made from steels (such as PM-V11 and M4) that rival the Japanese laminated blade, but they then do not compete with many for ease of sharpening (I'm going to contradict myself in a moment). I have Japanese blades that seem to do the impossible - sharpen easily and hold an edge forever. A solid Western steen hardened to the same level would simply chip.

The down side of the Japanese blade is the extra care needed in the sharpening process. Being laminated steel, they are not hollow ground (although many will do so - carefully! - without damaging the temper). The blades are also hollowed at the back (to make it easier to keep flat - the steel there is hard and would otherwise be impossible to hone). Plane blades need to be tapped out. Chisels are straight forward - just lap the back. All this looks more daunting than a Western blade. The recommended honing practice is to freehand on a flat bevel face. Again, one can use a honing guide.

As with Western chisels, the more impact activities (e.g. chopping) requir higher bevel angles. I would not use a Japanese blade below 25 degrees for paring. By comparison with Western blades, as with the saws, Japanese tools deserve more reverance ... but they reward with a higher performance.

Overall, Western planes and chisels are just easier to set up and use, probably because we are all so used to them. I have minimal experience with Japanese planes. Perhaps Brian will say something about the East-West comparison.

Chinese? I am not referring to Western tools copied in China. I have a couple of Chinese laminated plane blades. Overall, they are slightly softer than Japanese, but they are really excellent. I have used Chinese planes for years - they resemble the Japanese but are pushed. The most common example is the Mujingfang range. Superb quality for a mass-produced cheapish plane. The original HNT Gordon bench planes are based on the same design.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

You guys have covered the differences quite well. I use both western and Japanese planes and in practically every other group of tools I use exclusively Japanese tools.

I think it's important to use both and determine which you prefer. I really enjoy the spirit of Japanese tools, it's nice to know that someone on the other end put their sweat into a hand forged tool. I feel similarly when I use my planes made by David Weaver. I feel a certain kinship in this way, they speak to me through their craft. The more I discover about the tools the more I feel I begin to understand the thought process and considerations that went into their making.

[Robert Hazelwood]

My thoughts:

Saws - The mass-produced Japanese saws (ex. Gyokucho) are amazing for what they cost. They cut very fast and leave a clean finish. The Ryoba type of saw is brilliant, you can do so many tasks with one saw. On the other hand they seem a bit more sensitive to bad technique or too much pressure, and they seem to have a little more propensity for the backside of the cut to wander. A large (say 300mm) ryoba is surprisingly fast at big ripping and crosscutting chores. A smaller (say 240 or 210mm) is a nice tenon/carcass saw.

Chisels - I like the standard oire-nomi very well, they are ideal bench/chopping chisels in my opinion. I like the short overall length, which makes them very handy and quick to place in a mark (compared to my vintage western socket chisels which tend to have very long blades). So far the edge retention is noticeably better than anything else I have (and most of those are pretty good). I don't find the sharpening too onerous, even using oil stones. It's not much fun to remove knicks, though, especially if you don't resort to a grinder. Same for adjusting bevel angles. But if you can avoid the knicks then they are quite reasonable to sharpen (not much different from any other tool).

They are pretty expensive, though. The entry level price is roughly on par with Lie-Nielsen, and goes way up from there. At any given price point the fit/finish will be rougher, and the user will have to do more work to get it in shape. The steel should be good though.

Planes - I haven't had as much luck with kanna. At least, I have not been able to get them to quite match a LN #4 as a smoothing plane. Of course mine aren't high end examples, and with more tuning they still might improve, but it's hard for me to imagine it being worth the effort with as good as the western planes are. One thing I have found is that they excel at hogging off endgrain. They are also nice to use in a shooting board or for shooting long grain edges on the benchtop (the plane grip and pull motion are comfortable, and the wood-on-wood action is nice). The pull motion is easier for some oddball tasks.

Same pricing situation as with chisels.

[Steve Voigt]

First off, in my opinion Japanese tools are about as sophisticated as could be, and light years ahead of Western equivalents.

You're kidding, right?

[Brian Holcombe]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

[Patrick Chase]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

There are a lot of manufactured Japanese tools on the market, even "high-end" ones (cue one of Stan's diatribes about the new generation of toolmakers adopting rikizai here). Unless the OP is willing to allocate "Brian Holcombe money" to his tool budget he's therefore likely to end up with manufactured stuff either way.

IMO that's not inherently a bad thing, though. There are some very good manufactured tools out there, and IMO the difference between hand-forging and "manufacturing" is rapidly narrowing with the advent of things like PM steels. Why bother pounding the living daylights out of a hunk of metal over a hot forge to refine the grain along one axis when you can buy it processed such that it's similarly refined on all axes?

Don't get me wrong: I am in awe of both the quality of a lot of the mass-market Japanese "manufactured" stuff (see previous post) and of the enduring Japanese tradition of fine hand-toolmaking. I just want to make sure we're not thinking magically here :-)

[Matt Lau]

Hey Patrick,

I'm not sure about Brian Holcombe money, but Stan helped me find and buy chisels from a very good smith.
They're plain white steel, with nothing fancy--but handle and cut so well!

At the time, I hadn't paid myself for a year at my new dental office, so these seemed expensive.
But looking back, I am extremely grateful that he'd gotten me such a high quality chisel as a low price.

Since you're nearby, you're welcome to set up a time to try mine out.
In Stan's view, they are every bit as good as the Konobu and Kunikei chisels.
I won't tell you the price, as I'd promised him. But I will say that these are incredibly good chisels at twice the price.

Also, in terms of planes, I can say that the Takeo Nakano planes are extremely high quality and underrated.
They're really special. I got mine from Two pines trading for $175.

-Matt

There are a lot of manufactured Japanese tools on the market, even "high-end" ones (cue one of Stan's diatribes about the new generation of toolmakers adopting rikizai here). Unless the OP is willing to allocate "Brian Holcombe money" to his tool budget he's therefore likely to end up with manufactured stuff either way.

IMO that's not inherently a bad thing, though. There are some very good manufactured tools out there, and IMO the difference between hand-forging and "manufacturing" is rapidly narrowing with the advent of things like PM steels. Why bother pounding the living daylights out of a hunk of metal over a hot forge to refine the grain along one axis when you can buy it processed such that it's similarly refined on all axes?

Don't get me wrong: I am in awe of both the quality of a lot of the mass-market Japanese "manufactured" stuff (see previous post) and of the enduring Japanese tradition of fine hand-toolmaking. I just want to make sure we're not thinking magically here :-)

[Robert Hazelwood]

Robert, than can be true but it depends on the smith. In my experience Konobu and Kunikei are finishing at an incredible level made all the more impressive by the fact that it is done mainly by sen (scraper) and file with the forge black left on the tool in a perfectly uniform fashion.

It's very hard to compare between the two, becuase western manufactures chisels are just that, manufactured. Manufacturing provides a level of consistency in finish from piece to piece that is more expensive to provide in a handmade item. At the top end the range it is a fairly consistent result.

Oh I completely understand why the price to fit/finish ratio is the way it is, and I wouldn't say they are overpriced by any means. In fact to have any amount of handwork for what they charge is pretty amazing. My experience has been with chisels in the $50 to $100 range, where in the best case they can do a good job on the forging and lamination, but have to rush a bit through the finishing. To some extent the roughness works with the overall aesthetic. My only real complaint is when the back of the tool is out of sorts- it is quite time consuming to correct this while maintaining a halfway decent ura. I have this in mind because I've spent the better part of this weekend flattening the backs of a set of 10 Kikuhiromaru oire-nomi in white steel #2. Each one with a significant concavity along the back, and a few with twist to boot. At least I can tell the steel is very hard, since my Shaptons seemed slower than usual

But in this price range you can get high-end manufactured Western chisels like lie-nielsen or veritas, where you can expect a negligible amount of work to get them in order. I don't think that makes them superior, since what I really want is a plain high-carbon steel run fairly hard. But for someone considering these tools it's something to consider. More is demanded of the user in setting up and maintaining the tool.

I would really like to get my hands on the higher end Japanese tools like those you mentioned. My plan is to slowly acquire some really ace white steel #1 paring chisels, finished with file and sen. These will accompany the more proletarian ws2 bench chisels.