Are carbide tools causing us to lose skills in turning?

[Richard Coers]

Sharpening with a Wolverine system takes about 30-60 seconds no matter what tool you have in your hand. You spend a lot more time sanding the wood when using a carbide scraper than what I do in sharpening. I also read a ton of guys talking about how they use diamond cards to sharpen carbide, so sharpening for most is never eliminated.

[Tim Tucker]

Interesting that you don't even mention the skew. If not, then the answer to why you don't mention the skew is likely the same answer to the popularity of carbide tools.

John - I think most turners would agree that the skew is the most feared of all HSS "traditional" turning tools. So, it would be at the opposite end of the spectrum when comparing gouges vs carbides - in terms of "ease of use". Not a carbide fan myself, other than some of the Hunter cupped carbides for hollowing, and coring. But it may also be one of - if not THE most versatile tools - in the hands of someone with experience with it. Allan Batty, and a few others have done demonstrations using only a skew for the entire demo.

Mikey - YES...I do believe that like much of the world around us, carbides provide a mis-perceived "short-cut" for new turners. But they do so with severe limitations of lack of flexibility, and less desirable finish cuts on the wood. Said differently - if a turner is proficient with the gouge - he can potentially turn an entire object with ONE tool...the gouge. I can't see that as possible with carbides. Typical carbides are merely scrapers. I have not ever seen a scraper capable of providing as clean a cut ( since it does not actually "cut"...) on a finishing pass. IMHO, carbides...the regular flat top ones and the "negative rake" type are the the duct tape of wood turning....sure, duct tape will hold things together - for a while...but it is normally not considered the correct choice of "correct repair methods" .

[David Walser]

Tim -- Two comments: First, you're replying to a thread from 2017. It popped up on everyone's screen because someone else responded yesterday.

Second, while I don't disagree with anything that you say. I do think it's fair to point out that carbide tools are sometimes the right tool for the job. For example, when turning resins, a scraping cut will often leave a better surface than a bevel supported cut. (It's only speculation, but I believe the heat generated by rubbing the bevel can soften some plastics, causing them to cut less cleanly.) For this reason, I keep some carbide tools in my shop. (I like to cast and turn my own blanks.) Will a traditional HSS scraper do as well? Sure, but resins tend to dull tools very quickly, so why not go with carbide? Similarly, I know some turners that use carbide tools for roughing out their turnings and then use traditional tools for their finishing cuts. That's not my preference, but I can't fault it. They spend less time sharpening their spindle roughing gouge than I do!

Bonus point: If new turners get into the hobby with carbide tools, I don't see how the rest of us are harmed by it. For most of what we turn, carbide tools work just fine. After a bit of sanding, no one can tell what kind of tool was used to make bowl or pepper mill. Eventually, some of them may want to emulate the crisp details of Cindy Drozda's finials. Then, they'll learn that carbide tools cannot do everything. Or, perhaps, they'll tire of sanding as much an learn how to use traditional tools much of their turning. This isn't a sport. Their aren't rules of competition, and using carbide tools isn't cheating.

[Reed Gray]

No clue as to where the idea started that scrapers don't cut. I use scrapers far more than most, they do a 'scraping cut'. I can send out long ribbons of wood from thick to paper thin depending on what I am cutting. As I have said before, the popularity of the carbide tools is due at least in part because they are small easy to control scrapers. On some of the wooden bowls I make, I can get 180 grit sanding surfaces from using just scrapers, though I prefer to use a gouge for the finish cuts and then shear scrape. Don't believe me? Well, look up my videos on Shear Scraping and Scary Scrapers. I don't use the carbide ones because I want one that is easy to resharpen. Look up the Big Ugly tool, which is in the Scary Scrapers video.

In end grain cutting, like boxes, you can get 220 grit sanding surfaces. Generally much cleaner cuts in end grain than in side grain.

robo hippy

[Paul Haus]

I realize this is an old thread, but the same comments have existed for probably 50+ years, though not on the same tools. I've seen similar comments on carbide tipped table saw blades. Then it was router bits, then shaper cutters and bandsaw blades, etc. Every side of every item has both proponents and opponents, IMO neither is fully right nor fully wrong. Personally, I have carbon steel, HSS and carbide tipped turning tools. Each has a situation where it does better than the others, just pick the right tool for the situation and enjoy the turning. If nothing else, each person has their own shop and their own tools and can do as they see fit.
My 2 cents.

[Edward Weber]

Paul, I don't disagree with you but the main point is that the tools you mentioned didn't require you to change the way you use the tool.

Carbide tip turning tools are scrapers and are typically used level at or near the center-line.
This is why some question "Are carbide tools causing us to lose skill in turning"?
Holding a tool level at the center-line is most often seen being performed by a machine, without much if any operator (human) input. By using a "set" cutting angle at a "set" height, some argue that this takes away many of the variables (skills) required when using traditional tools.

Traditional turning tools have no real limits on how they are used or presented to the wood due to the innumerable cutting edge shapes and angles. This approach requires the operator to change or adjust the cutting angle by manipulating the tool in real time, for the best performance. This is the skill that some fear is in danger of being lost.

Both have pro's and con's, it all depends on what you want to achieve and how you want to get their.

[Paul Haus]

Ed
I don't know I'd go so far as to say all carbide turning tools are scrapers. I will admit that because of the thickness of the shaft of the tool it can limit your angle of attack due to the physical limitation of the tool but the sharpness, hardness and angle the cutter is ground determines IMO whether it's a scraper or a cutter. I've looked at a couple of different brands of carbide tools and there is a difference in grinds on them IMO, though I couldn't actually measure them in the store. Just did some turning last week with both HSS and carbide tooling. both sharp. Both cut and I will say that carbide worked better encountering end grain than the HSS cutters did.
To me it's like trying to teach a student to turn something round using a skew vs. a gouge. I've taught a few people to turn over the years and it's the exceptional student that can pick up using a skew faster than a gouge.
IMO turning should be fun vs. frustrating. If someone can turn something they're proud of using carbide tools then that's a positive item, vs. throwing up their hands in frustration and walking away from turning totally. It's fun to watch someone that's mastered some basic skills start experimenting with other tools and techniques and see them starting to master that too.
That's the point IMO, fire up the imagination and try something new and watch their eyes light up as they do something new to them.
My 2 cents.
Paul

[David Walser]

...
I don't know I'd go so far as to say all carbide turning tools are scrapers. I will admit that because of the thickness of the shaft of the tool it can limit your angle of attack due to the physical limitation of the tool but the sharpness, hardness and angle the cutter is ground determines IMO whether it's a scraper or a cutter. ...

Paul -- I believe the issue is one of turning jargon. Turners frequently say scrapers are not cutting tools, when what they mean is that scrapers do not make bevel supported cuts. Yes, a scraper may cut, rather than tear, wood fibers. But, in general, a scraping cut does not leave as clean a surface as does a bevel supported cut. Similarly, a shear scrape leaves a cleaner surface then does a 'regular' scraping cut and a shear (bevel supported) cut is cleaner than a peeling cut. But, they're all cuts. It's just not as efficient to repeat the word 'cut' whenever we're talking about scraping. Nor is it efficient to always say bevel supported when we're talking about cutting. That's the origin of 'scrapers aren't cutting tools'.

Of course, some carbide tools do make bevel supported cuts. The tools from Mike Hunter are a good example.

[Edward Weber]

Well stated David, I think that just about covers what I was going to say, thanks.
The only thing I would add is that "there are always exceptions"
The original question was "Are carbide tools causing us to lose skill in turning"?
I would say yes. If all you use are carbide replaceable tip tools, there are many aspects of creating a turned wood object that no longer be considered, some would say lost.
That doesn't mean that the turning isn't good or the person is less of a turner. It just means one person has a different skill set than the other.

[Neil Strong]

Quite the walking dead thread this one... it won't lie down and die... :~}

If I said that I have one carbide tipped tool and about 30 HSS tools of varying pedigrees and that the last time I got the carbide out was about 5yrs ago when I had a stone filled root ball that I wanted to protect my HSS tools from, then I have probably given my perspective on this question.

Any issues I have with carbide woodturning tools are not to do with the metal but more with the tool design.

Traditionally pattern makers scraped (often slowly) to achieve precise dimensions and they had little interest in surface finish, whereas woodturners aimed for speed and minimal tear out using gouges and skews.

The flat carbide tips that were adopted from metal engineering were flat and more suited to scraping cuts and thus became their predominant method of use.

To satisfy my curiosity, I did try using the regular flat top carbide tips to do bevel rubbing cuts early in their popularity. Like V15 tools, I found the carbides in them are too large to give a very keen edge, but keep cutting in a fashion for much longer than HSS. They do particularly well in our very hard woods.

But, there is a reason why gouges have been used for almost ever in both spindle and faceplate woodturning and why we ended up with the design of the modern bowl gouge... it is optimised for cutting inside bowls.

Yes, you can scrape out almost all of the inside of a bowl (some prefer to do that, like Reed does), but most of us prefer a bowl gouge with a well formed flute profile to do that.

Down here we experimented with carbide tips with flute profiles like those found on most bowl gouges. They performed well with our hard and abrasive woods, but initial cost and the requirement to also have a diamond wheel grinder for just those tips became issues with going ahead with them. The small size of our market was probably another factor.

See attached report in the following link...

https://www.woodworkforums.com/f8/tr.../3#post2048883