My strategy is a chisel that works with an as sharp as can be low angle bevel ~15-20º.Originally Posted by John C Cox
A slicing motion while taking a thin shaving also helps.
jtk
Contributor
My strategy is a chisel that works with an as sharp as can be low angle bevel ~15-20º.
A slicing motion while taking a thin shaving also helps.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Guest
Stan thank you I actually like them very much.
Regardless of the one large slick having a bad back “my favorite to date” it works more than fine so I suppose what is the problem. Sure it’s layered sword steel White #1 and supposed to be all pretty, and yes part of why I purchased them. But let’s face it tools are to be used and if they work properly and it more than does what can one really complain about. The tool gets razor sharp, holds its edge for a long time and the back is flat even if ugly as sin.
I am not going to badmouth Mr.Imai as we all turnout work we are not proud of more than most of us will admit. The fact is some of it sneaks by all of us and some of us let it out as we have to. I’m not perfect and have to let less than perfect work off my bench as my boss has to make money so he can pay me. Few can and are willing to pay for perfection.
On a separate not I spent my afternoon shopping huge ticket top of the line Martin machines and man are they perfect works or art on their own right. seems Martin also strive for perfection as does I’m sure Mr Imai..
Guest
Brian,
Not to shabby yourself sensei.
This is by no way not criticism but rather a observation. I am clearly still elbow deep in the learning process as you well know with regard to Japanese tools and woodworking.
I notice your tools also have areas of more and less polish or a slightly irregular scratch pattern and or differing cloudiness and polish. Not so much a irregular scratch pattern but a random scratch here or there. I know you can be sensitive so please don’t take this as me being critical as I have the utmost respect for both you and your work.
I have worked tirelessly to flatten the back of a tool as to get a 100% even scratch pattern and or polish “not aiming for a polish” free of the slightest variation. I think thus far I achieved such on one or two pieces “sans strop, I don’t own one nor will I ever out of maybe twentyntools I have worked thus far.
To me it’s seems maybe a wasted venture as at the point both are tools indicate in pictures you they are razor sharp as the back is flat at the cutting edge and the bevel the same.
Anyway all I’m saying is your tools look awesome but also put in perspective for me that the perfection I am seeking may not be realistic or nessiary.
Contributor
Thank you!
Good observations, these chisels are actually maintained with ura-dashi (tapping out) since they're constructed more similarly to plane blades than to a normal chisel. There are no hardened ears turned up at the sides of the chisel. When I perform ura-dashi I flatten the back just enough to get that bright edge right behind the cutting edge and not more. The reason is that it will blend over time, so 5-10 sharpenings or so. I dont need to sharpen these chisels very often so that might be a few months for this set.
So, it's not a wasted effort at all, it's a great learning experience and over time you'll find which tools can be maintained like these and which require super flat backs.
As example, here is an example of chu-tataki that are made more typically (they have ears, the area where the steel is folded up). I do also use some ura-dashi when setting these up, but I would not typically maintain them with much ura-dashi.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Guest
Patrick:
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not criticizing Imai san's products in any way.
IN GENERAL, I don't like the layered "Damascus" style of jigane in chisels or blades. It does indeed look pretty, but it is a counterproductive detail that does not improve the chisels performance, while adding to its cost.
You referred to "layered sword steel White #1." There is no such metal. I suspect you instead meant the cutting edge was made from Hitachi Metal's Yasuki Shirogami #1 high carbon steel. A good product that frequently makes a superior cutting edge.
By "layered" I assume you mean the lamination of low-carbon jigane body/neck/tang and the high-carbon cutting edge. But the pretty layering visible at the blade's bevel in your pictures is in the jigane, which is certainly not high-carbon steel. Pattern layer steel like that is usually made by combining layers of plain jigane with low-carbon steel layers containing a bit of nickle. I understand it is typically factory made and purchased by the blacksmith already pre-layered. The nickle makes the jigane somewhat harder to sharpen, and it may not ride the stones as well. Perhaps your blade is different.
Of course, you know that Japanese swords are not layered, and that the pattern in the blade is formed by differential heat treatment, although they do have internal laminations not visible (except perhaps at the very back/ridge in some blade styles.
Hitachi's expressed goal in developing the blue, white yellow steel at their Yasuki factory was to produce a steel similar to the Tamahagane used in making swords. This was all hype because these steels are not similar to tamahagane at all. But part of the hype Hitachi cooked up at the time was to call it "sword steel." A lot of blacksmiths, especially sawsmiths, rode this hype as far as it would take them. I have several saws labeled "Tamahagane," made 30 or 40 years ago, which are actually Yasuki Shirogami #2. I also have saws made from actual tamahagane before Edwards Steel was imported into Japan from England. A very different product.
Polished blades are pretty too, and are not counterproductive in any way. But there have been blacksmiths that polished their blades to hide defects in heat treatment, that would otherwise be visible in the black oxide skin formed during heat treatment. Polishing them simply makes them suspect, IMO, and with a few exceptions, I will not buy them.
Stan
Last edited by Stanley Covington; 01-31-2018 at 1:24 AM.
Member
Just to be clear, are the "ears" you're referring to the thicker "strakes" in the hardened bit along each side of the chisel? I'd noticed that before but didn't understand why it was done. It makes sense now that I think about it. It may also have the effect of strengthening the weld a bit.
A question for either Brian or Stan: Is the presence of ears a reliable indicator of hand-forging, or is rikizai made with such thickness profiles as well?
Last edited by Patrick Chase; 01-31-2018 at 9:09 PM.
Guest
I have not heard them called "ears" before, but the steel wrapped up the sides of the blade is what I think is being talked about.
I have never heard it mentioned as a technique for improving the "weld," but rather as a way to add stiffness to the blade. Wrapping it up the sides increases the second moment of intertia of the blade considerably since the high-carbon steel layer is much much stiffer than the jigane. Without this wrapped steel, the softer jigane can easily bend plastically. This is a real problem for chisels intended to be hit with a hammer, but not for push chisels (aka paring chisels or tsukinomi). Konobu specializes in making carving chisels, and paring chisels, and does not have an extensive set of dies for shaping "wraps." So, while he does occasionally make oirenomi with the wrapped sides, it is not a standard product for him. He has made some shinogi paring chisels for me, but the style and tolerances are not ideal IMO.
Rikizai can indeed be shaped this way, and increasingly more and more blacksmiths (manufacturers) are doing so. Miki is famous for this. There are scandalous rumors in the industry that some famous ones in Niigata are also going that route recently, but I have not confirmed them myself and so will not name names.
Contributor
Exactly, they look like bat ears. As Stan mentions it strengthens the chisel becuase it is a channel section rather than a flat section.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
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