Risky Cuts

[Burt Waddell]

Someone suggested that we start a thread on the dead wood concept, so here goes.

In the other thread John asked me what I meant by risky cuts. Dangerous would have been a term to use. The specific cut was cutting a rabbit about 2 inches deep in the edge of a 1" x 3" board. Anyway you did it your finger was within 1/2" of the blade - one slip and we all know the rest.

With the Easy smart guide and smart clamps, I could have clamped the boards in and done the cuts with no danger of injury.

The basic idea of the dead wood concept is that you move the tool and the wood stays in place. In other words it is easier and safer to push a circular saw on a guide down the center of a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood than it is to pust the sheet of plywood thru a table saw. I'm sure Dino can add volumes to this.

[Don Baer]

Burt,
Not to start an arguement but I have made similar cuts many times on Tablesaws without my fingurs coming close to the blade. I don't question the fact that many find the guided system more comfortable then the stationary saw method. BUT don't sell short the fact that for many years folks have been cutting wood making cuts the same as you described whithout loss of limbs. It's realy a matter of being confortable with using the tools you have and using them properly. I gueantee that if someone is carless enough to hurt themselves using power tools they will find a way either with the dead wood idea or otherwise..

It realy boils down to the basics of practicing our craft by engaging our brain prior to turning on the power.

[Frank Hagan]

I like the "guided saw" concept, but there is still ample opportunity for injury. For one, the operator has to assemble the system, bring the saw to the guide, etc. Carelessness can still have him binding material, tripping on debris on the floor, plugging in the tool before setting it up and accidentally starting the saw, etc.

I don't think it can be beat for things like cutting sheet goods, though. Unless you have a sliding table on your table saw, which I think is a pretty safe way to do it.

[Dino Makropoulos]

I like the "guided saw" concept, but there is still ample opportunity for injury. For one, the operator has to assemble the system, bring the saw to the guide, etc. Carelessness can still have him binding material, tripping on debris on the floor, plugging in the tool before setting it up and accidentally starting the saw, etc.

I don't think it can be beat for things like cutting sheet goods, though. Unless you have a sliding table on your table saw, which I think is a pretty safe way to do it.

Frank.
The "guided saw' concept is been around from the day the Skill saw was invented. And I'm sure the "guided router" and the "guided planer" or even the "guided chain saw" one way or another.
On the machine shop we don't see machinists holding the parts on the drill press. The Vise is on every machinist tool. It was the right thing to do and it was easy to figure this out.

With my woodworking back round, one day I asked the owner of the machine shop, who was making some prototypes for me, if I can cut some aluminum on the cut-off saw.
He ask me if I know how to use the tool, and my answer was, What you think I'm stupid? I be cutting wood for over 25 years ..do you see? ...10.
He said. Ok. Let me see your first cut.
I set the aluminum bar on the saw , bring the blade to the mark and .. I start the machine.
-NO-NO-NO. If you cut the parts like that, I can't use them.
You need to use the stop.
- But you have the stop on the cut-off side. We may have binding and I'm not about to visit the local hospital. What do you think now old man?
I told you that I'm a good carpenter and I know how to cut.

Dino,dino,dino. You guys are all the same. A disaster waiting to happen.
You guys do everything wrong and you know everything about machines.
You don't even try to see how the tool works.
Do you see this stop? do you see how THIS stop works?
Let me show you how to use the machine now. I'm not about to have an accident in my machine shop after 50 years.

Frank. THIS stop can be good for woodworking. Why we don't have this old and smart stop on the radial arm saws and miter saws?

Because Dino, When I ask you if you know how to cut, you saw me your fingers. Having 10 fingers isn't what is all about. Keeping them is.
And I know few smarter and better carpenters than
you with less than 10.

I think the same goes here. I thought THE STOP was a problem when a closer look change the way I think about stops now.

Same with Burt. He take a closer look at the Dead Wood Concept and he found more than just a "guided saw"

[Mark Singer]

Burt,
That should be done with a tenoning jig....never hold a piece 1x3 vertically by hand on a table saw!

[Burt Waddell]

Mark,

Couldn't agree more. The pieces were about 12" long and the dado ran the length of the board.

I fully realize that no system is perfect, but this time the guide system with a good clamping system would have greatly reduced the chance of injury. There is danger any time we turn a power tool on so we need to minimize that danger.

I operate a full time wood shop and in the past spent a lot of time behind the 3 Unisaws that I owned. I've reduced that to 2 and there is a good possibility that one of them may go. I just find that it takes a lot less work to use the saw guides than it does the table saws. In fact just a few months ago, I sold a Excaliber sliding table. It was a fine tool but I feel a lot better after cross cutting the wood for a kitchen with a guide than I did with the sliding table.

The key word is be safe.

[Dev Emch]

You guys know me..... I am the Yah-But Kid.

I have said this before and I will say it again. The most important machine tool in the wood shop today is a good full size shaper with a 1 or 1.25 inch spindle or a 30 mm spindle.

This is esp. true if your running a power feeder. I first began using power feeders to run long moulding like cuts to eliminate the burn marks and slight pertobations that result each time you have to change your hand position and stop the feeding.... if only for a second. I had an old used Delta power feeder and I attached it to the swing away power feeder bracket on my shaper. I have never looked back and the used Delta feeder works great. Its not a Univer but then again, I got it thrown in with a machine deal for free.

The advantage the power feeder has on the shaper is two fold. First, it runs the stock at a rock steady feed rate with a constant pressure to the fence. This improves consistency and quality of cut. Secondly, the "shoe" goes slightly in front of the cutter head. Remember, shapers often have split fences and the infeed fence is often back of the outfeed fence. So your fingers are never never never in the vincinity of those knives.

For rabbit cuts and dado cuts along the edges, the shaper does an excellent job and often I dont have to do multiple passes due to either material removal restrictions (i.e. router bits) or odd dado or rabbit widths (i.e. I can use a stackable groover head).

Shapers can be set up to do most wood working cuts of note. I have even used mine to edge joint 4/4 stock instead of a jointer when my jointer was down.

Equiped with either a groover or a veritcal bit (i.e. router bit in a special spindle), the shaper becomes a dado and rabbit cuttin' monster. With the vertical bit, its easy to do blind dados. If the dados are not blind but through, then just use a standard groover head.

The shaper is often never talked about in the rags because it is seen as 1). Dangerous, 2). Expensive and 3). A machine restricted to pro level shops. And maybe a fourth reason. A shaper can eliminate the need for a whole pile of portable kit such as edge guides, specialized router jigs, mortise and tenon jigs, etc. This defeats the mission of the modern hobbyist woodworking business montra....... SELL MO TOOLING..... SELL MO TOOLING.

So getting back to the orig. example of putting this rabbit onto a 1x3 board 12 inches long. First, I would always try to rabbit first and then trim to 12 inches if the application allows this. But it not, no worries. It would take about 5 to 10 minutes to set up the shaper and then you can crank out a truck bed full of these parts in about 15 minutes or less. Did I also mention that shapers are wood pulverizing machines!

And when it comes to cutting the absolute perfect machine cut tennon, nothing beats a shaper with either a cross cut sled or a sliding table and a pair of identical rebate heads and a spacer the width of your tennon. NOTHING... NODA. O.K., there is one machine. A tenoner. But a tenoner is a very specialized wood shaper and I cannot use a tenoner to raise a panel, joint and edge, rabbit a 1x3 board, etc.

I have what I call Dev's Shaping Triangle. All wood shaping occurs on one or more points of a triangle. At the first point, we have the shaper. A shaper can be used to do the work of either remaining two points or unique work that niether of the other two points can do. Hence, its the most important of the three machines types. It can do either moulding cuts or coping cuts. The next or second point is the moulder. It is restricted to doing moulding or with the grain cuts. Often, these have several heads and are specialized machines costing upwards of $100 K new. They are the most expensive and difficult to use and are really only viable in a moulding shop. The last point represents the coping cut. This is the stomping grounds of the tennoner. Some are single end and some are double end. Each end can have as many as five motors/spindles. They excel at cutting tennons of any size and also work wonders in doing the coping relief cuts and tennon length trim cuts. You find these in cabinet and door shops. They are somewhat specialized and unload the generic shaper for other duties.



Just my opinion....

[John Bailey]

Sorry to be so uninformed, but not having a table saw was leaving me in the dark. As I understand then, the "risky cut" business would be a matter of choice by the operator, not an inherent trait of the tablesaw. Apparently there are safe ways of making these cuts. So, that makes the tablesaw no different than the rest of the machines in our shops. We can use them safely, or, we can choose to use them, shall we say, ill-advisedly.

The only bad cut to myself was from a handsaw. It was hanging on the wall, I looked away while I reached for it. My hand knocked it off the wall and as it fell to the teeth ripped a pretty good cut in the side of my hand. I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

John

[Randy Moore]

It doesn't matter how you cut that piece of wood or any piece for that matter.You have to think about what you are doing at all times, the first time you get lax about using the table saw or circular saw you WILL get hurt. You have to think about what you are doing not about the hot date you have next week.

I am in construction work and lots of time I can get lax about what I am doing and I get a serious cut or worse. but when I an operating the machinery I pay attention to what I am doing. I ignore almost everyone until I am done I have told some of the bosses to leave me alone and I will talk to them when I get done.

No distractions in the shop. You have to think about what you are doing 'cause if you are distracted you will get hurt darn near every time.

Randy

[Dennis Peacock]

I am in construction work and lots of time I can get lax about what I am doing and I get a serious cut or worse. but when I an operating the machinery I pay attention to what I am doing. I ignore almost everyone until I am done I have told some of the bosses to leave me alone and I will talk to them when I get done.

No distractions in the shop. You have to think about what you are doing 'cause if you are distracted you will get hurt darn near every time.
Randy

AMEN!!!!! Preach it..!!!!!! I have taught my wife and kids to NEVER and I mean N E V E R distract me while a machine is running.

To keep on topic though.....I have guiderail setups and like them a lot. They do help to make things safer overall and I applaud every single guiderail manufacturer for making and distributing the items they have designed to help make woodworking safer for the general public.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Sorry to be so uninformed, but not having a table saw was leaving me in the dark. As I understand then, the "risky cut" business would be a matter of choice by the operator, not an inherent trait of the tablesaw. Apparently there are safe ways of making these cuts. So, that makes the tablesaw no different than the rest of the machines in our shops. We can use them safely, or, we can choose to use them, shall we say, ill-advisedly.

John.
I agree with your statement.
The reality is that we all get lured into the spinning blade for an easy fast cut. Knowing that the table saw wasn't designed for this easy fast cut.

In the jobsite is even worse, because you can't have access to all of your "right tools" for the "right cut"

Same goes on the new shops. With limited budget and space we're forced to use the "wrong tool" for the "wrong cut."

And the same goes even when we have it all. In order to get done fast we get lured into the easy cut and we all know the results.

In a perfect woodworking environment, (this is DEV'S world) we need all the right tools,space and knowledge. The right mind set and plenty of time.

We're talking about UTOPIA here.
And the reality is ..5 Billion Dollars a year for hospital bills?
From 1 B Dollars industry?


The only bad cut to myself was from a handsaw. It was hanging on the wall, I looked away while I reached for it. My hand knocked it off the wall and as it fell to the teeth ripped a pretty good cut in the side of my hand. I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

John

... I called that saw every name in the book, including stupid, but as everyone knows, the saw was much smarter than I was just then.

Same here. That Stupid tool. last month I broke the glass on a sliding door trying to cut aluminum without Frank's stop.
Lucky that the piece don't deform my face.
That Stupid tool.

[Dino Makropoulos]

You guys know me..... I am the Yah-But Kid.

Just my opinion....

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it.

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

....Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it.

I'll go out on a limb here...betcha he cant. Or won't, anyway.

[John Bailey]

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it.

Either way, this is going to be good!!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dev.
What is the best/right tool for cutting panels?
What is the best/right tool for straight line ripping?
What is the best /right tool for edge jointing a board?
What is the best /right tool for a compound cut. (tapered/bevel)
What is the best /right tool for mortising and tenons?
What is the best /right tool for dadoes?

Please . make this your first one or two lines answer.
You can do it.

Dino,
Well I will give you my answers

1)EFSTS
2)EFSTS
3)EFSTS
4)EFSTS
5)Horzontal mortiser on my MM J/P & planner for doing the tenon stock
6)My new invention of a router mounted in my EFSTS
This allows me to do any type of rabet or dado in any size piece of solid stock or panel stock and my hands are I am no where near the bit!