Need some advice for staircase remodeling

[joe webb]

Like Dan said, this is a difficult project and not for the faint of heart. If the stairs are built as poorly as you describe you would be better off tearing them out and restarting. But that also is not a project for someone with no experience.

You say the carpet took up 1" , that may be the case but a lot depends on you floor treatment which will be on the floor at the bottom and top of staircase. Code says no more than 3/8" difference from any two steps.

Isn't there a stair company near you, it may be cheaper to buy treads from them instead of shipping, treads are heavy.

Cove molding under the treads are a standard detail that should be included, quarter round on the tread/riser joint is not.

Once again, as Dan said, step back and make sure you understand how big a project you are about to undertake, lots of room for f*ckups on something like this.

Glad to see you on my thread Richard. I've been browsing this forum for the past 5 days and saw you helped lots of people here.

I contacted several local stores and, because of the custom pieces I need for the curved steps, they would send the material to the mills to make custom pieces. All the quotes I got here is 4X the cost of online. Shipping all this stuff is about $250. Not too bad. It's $1700 vs $7000. I guess I have room to buy a lot of extras :-)

Could you please explain why I need to tear out the existing risers and treads? Giving they will be covered, wouldn't that be a non-issue?

I read lots of threads about the risers differential and I think I am more lucky than most. I have tiles on the first floor and laminate planks on the second floor. They are both thinner than the new 1" treads. There is definitely some variation for the top and bottom riser but they are within 3/8". The builder must have accounted for that.

My understanding is usually the bottom riser can be taller and the top riser can be shorter than required. Then we need to take out the few adjacent treads and spread that delta over them. Given we take out 1" thick tread, we can shim the stringers.

Am I on the right track? which part would you say is the most daunting?

Thanks much

[Richard Wolf]

First, thanks to Dan and Mark for the compliments. Joe, where do you live? Location would help, maybe I have a contact that could get you materials, moral support or even help if you need it.

[Richard Wolf]

We were typing at the same time. Your staircase is built by a framer not a stairman. The stringers should be mortised out so the treads and riser fit tightly with wedges. Your risers and treads are most likely on rough cut stringers which may end up with a lot of shimming.

The problem with building on top of your treads, you have to cut the nosing off each tread, it's doable, just something you need to know. Not being able to get behind the stair will be a problem with getting a good tight fit. The risers should be screwed into each tread.

To save money on each of the curved treads, if you plan correctly, cut the back curve off first and then glue it to the front and cut the front. You can save a lot of waste that way.

The most daunting part will be fitting pieces together with a good joint. It's easy to say,"It's got to be better than what's there now, except now you are the one to blame, not the builder. Avoiding a noisy staircase is also going to be a considerstion.

[joe webb]

First, thanks to Dan and Mark for the compliments. Joe, where do you live? Location would help, maybe I have a contact that could get you materials, moral support or even help if you need it.

Thanks Richard. I live in San Jose, North California. Everything is so expensive here especially if labor is involved.

[joe webb]

On top of all the other good information here I would suggest that if your going to opt for painted risers to not use anything soft. Plywood, and poplar, are dead soft. Risers take a ton of abuse and soft materials will dent, the finish (paint) will break, and you will be miserable with them in short order.

Richard is about the end all be all in the stair building world.. all great information here, but I would strogly take heed to his and Dans cautions.

Thanks Mark. What kind of wood would you recommend? My wife wants me to put mosaic tiles on the risers, but I am concerned of the beating and could need more TLC in the long term. Although I really like the look of tiled risers. But it's quite more work. Something like this.

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/89/a7/2b/8...334e9e390d.jpg

[Ole Anderson]

Not even going to comment on the curved pieces, but for the straight treads you need a tread gauge. I made one. Here I helped my son remove the carpet and replace it with stranded bamboo, both risers and treads. We had to pull the old fir treads to rip off the nose to fit the standard nose piece provided with the bamboo. Old fashioned nail puller, old tread back in with glue and screws. Had to hand nail the bamboo, no room for the floor nailer and it was too hard for the 18 ga brad gun.

Edit: You can see we just used the same stuff as the main floor. Have you thought of just using your laminate right over your existing treads? No issue matching the floor then. Try a tread or two to see how it goes, nothing to loose. Coming up with the nose could be an issue depending on what trim they offer for your floor.

[joe webb]

We were typing at the same time. Your staircase is built by a framer not a stairman. The stringers should be mortised out so the treads and riser fit tightly with wedges. Your risers and treads are most likely on rough cut stringers which may end up with a lot of shimming.

This is part of the original construction of the house. What does "stringers should be mortised out so the treads and riser fit tightly with wedges" means? Sorry, newbie here :-(
My thinking was if it can hold the current stairs properly, putting new tread on top should be okay.

The problem with building on top of your treads, you have to cut the nosing off each tread, it's doable, just something you need to know. Not being able to get behind the stair will be a problem with getting a good tight fit. The risers should be screwed into each tread.

yes, I would cut the overhang of the existing tread first and cover it w/ the new riser. Does "risers should be screwed into each tread" means the riser is installed behind the tread (and not on top of it) and they both get glued to the current structure at once? If we don't have the tight fit, is that why we have the 1/4 round moulding?

To save money on each of the curved treads, if you plan correctly, cut the back curve off first and then glue it to the front and cut the front. You can save a lot of waste that way.

Given I have walls on both side, cutting in place would be hard. Routing the bullnose all the way to the walls won't be possible.

The most daunting part will be fitting pieces together with a good joint. It's easy to say,"It's got to be better than what's there now, except now you are the one to blame, not the builder. Avoiding a noisy staircase is also going to be a considerstion.

Right now the staircase is not squeeky, but things are nailed together. I am plan on putting screws to further attach the current risers and treads to the stringer. Is there anything else I can do to prep the area before installing the new treads?

Are you referring to the joint between the tread and the bottom of the riser or something else? The top of the riser is covered by the cove moulding thus should be easy to fit right?

Thanks a lot for bringing these things out. I rather learn all this stuff now.

Joey

[Ole Anderson]

Hey, by the way Joe, welcome to the Creek!!!

[joe webb]

Not even going to comment on the curved pieces, but for the straight treads you need a tread gauge. I made one. Here I helped my son remove the carpet and replace it with stranded bamboo, both risers and treads. We had to pull the old fir treads to rip off the nose to fit the standard nose piece provided with the bamboo. Old fashioned nail puller, old tread back in with glue and screws. Had to hand nail the bamboo, no room for the floor nailer and it was too hard for the 18 ga brad gun.

Thanks Ole. I also removed my carpet and cleaned up gazillion of staples. Then sanded off all the white patches coming from the drywall work. I plan to cut off the overhang in place though.

I saw those home-made tread template. Great idea. But then I found a $20 one from HomeDepot :-)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stairtek...D00S/300906126

[joe webb]

Hey, by the way Joe, welcome to the Creek!!!

Thanks Ole. Glad to find this great forum. I got lots of help on other forums on woodworking in general, but when it comes to stairs, Creek has much more content.

[joe webb]

#1: On matching the distressed fake wood with really wood.
I’d try Red Oak in a #2 or #3 grade, BUT you’d have to buy boards and make your own boards for the landing.
To match the color you’ll just have to make samples to try to make the Oak match in color , and buy crappy grade wood to get the dark streaks , and sort of knotty look that the fake wood has. How you’ll make the area that appear to be “poorly surfaced wood with bandsaw mill marks” left in place I’m not sure?
Maybe it’s only the color you are really after , not the distressed “finish”???

Let’s jump to the landing subject :
You say there’s a landing , but your pencil sketch appears to show winder treads , rather than a one level landing , so I’m confused as to where the landing is???

IF there are winder treads in that “landing area” , I’d make those out of the same #2 or #3 Red Oak

Thanks for the long detailed reply Paul. I am just trying to find a type of wood that shows a similar pattern to avoid too much visual contrast. I will probably stain w/ the same brownish tone but darker. Trying to have an exact match would be lots of work if not unrealistic.

Sorry, what I called the landing is the area formed by the 4 pie-shaped treads. That area is 116x65", thus rather big steps. I plan to cover them with flooring.

#2: Birch 1/4” plywood could work, but as others have mentioned what you do to one riser and or tread , you have to do to all of them to keep the stair consistent.
I’d possibly remove the old risers and use 3/4” lumber either Poplar , or Hemlock for risers.
On the curved area , to remain consistent , three layers laminated out 1/4” ply might be the best way to do it.

Because of that "landing" area, I have some flexibility for changing the riser thickness when transitioning in/out of that area. The pie-shaped treads don't have to follow the same tread depth as the others.

What is the benefit of replacing the risers?

#3: Cove under the tread is surely do-able , and yes they’d normally match the treads.
I’m not sure cove will bend to the curve on the lower steps.

#4: A 1/4 round could be used , and small one.
The issues will be the curved steps. Although IF the cove will bend the 1/4 round will as well.

I bought a 11/16x11/16" red oak cove moulding from home depot and was able to bend it. I got a tip from woodworking forums that we bend wood by submerging in water.
But the curve is not very pronounced though. The step is 42" wide and the front in the middle sticks out 1.5" from the side.

Given the 1/4 round would be painted white, I can even use MDF.

#5: Maybe this landing area is what I’m seeing as the winder treads ??? Other wise I don’t see a landing.

If there is a landing , it’s possible a hardwood flooring company may sell Red Oak T&G flooring in a #2 or #3 grade , you’d need to check into that.

#6: Are you planning on buying the lower graded stair parts ??

Yes, I am buying the treads and flooring from the same mill.
And I was not aware there is a lower grade. They offer a standard and rustic look for each wood type, but no mention of grade. Only says matching NWFA specs.
http://www.hardwoodstairtreads.com/w...ir_treads.html

#7: If the stairs in as rough a shape as you say it is in rough framing , and your skill level is as low as you say it it, I’d say finish it after you are done.
Not knowing your skill level , how many hours a week you plan on working on the project , if you are a weekend DIYS guy winter will be over and you’ll be applying your finish in the spring or summer anyway.

This is a big project for a guy who self confessed to having not experience with stairs to take on.

A curved lower stair such as this is generally open on both sides at the base , some times all the way to the top in the middle , you haven’t mentioned the handrail / guard rail system, so I’m wondering about that as well.

Some photo’s of the actual stairs might be helpful in guiding you thru the process .

G-Luck.

Paul

I have hand rail on one side and plan to sand and stain it in place. It curves around with the stairs and looks tricky to take it off.

Correct, I am more of a weekend DIYer and I work slow to make sure the results look good. It would bother me to look every day at a sloppy job. I tend to plan excessively before the project starts and measure 4 times before I cut ;-)

I've been renovating my house section by section over the years and learning along. So far so good. Given I have time, I can do lots of details that it would be prohibitively expensive to ask from a contractor.

[Attached few pictures...the middle picture is taken from the first floor. Not sure why it is showing upside down]

[Paul Girouard]

Actually the stairs don’t look as bad as your description.

The OSB existing treads and risers could very well work if left in place.
You can rout off the nosing with a flush trimmer , and finish the cuts that where the router runs into the wall with a jig saw , or sawsall.

On the winders , they’d look better done as treads rather than nosings with flooring laid behind them.
As they are treads , not landings.
So I’d disagree that you have flexibility with differing riser heights.

Seeing you live in the house , most likely this stair won’t get inspected , so possibly that can , can be kicked down the road until such time the house changes hands.


The standard or Rustic look may be how stair parts are graded.

If the OSB is sound , which it appears to be from the photo’s , and there’s no squeaks , you should be fine.

[joe webb]

Thanks Paul. To clarify, I was referring to riser thickness (not height). For example, I can use 3/4" risers on the winder tread, but 1/4" riser on the curved tread just below it.

For sure we want the height to be as uniform as possible. If I put down 1" thick treads on top of the existing structure, all risers will be 7.5" except the top riser at 7 1/4". That is because my flooring is 5/8 with a 3mm liner.

Currently, the treads are 1" plywood, the winder is 3/4" plywood, the straight risers are 3/4" plywood, and the curved risers are 1/2" OSB (I guess to help it bends). No squeaking thus far, but I plan to drive few screws into the stringers to make sure things stay tight.

One strange thing is, the top straight section of the staircase, the 9 treads are 42x12' instead of being 11.5" depth. I can use 11.5" treads, but then overhang will be only 3/4" thus no space for the cove moulding.

[Tom M King]

The "walk line" (used to be called the "line of going") looks a bit strange to me on those winders. I would probably tear the whole thing out, and redo. When looking up what a "walk line" is, also look up Dancing Stairs. There might be something on dancing stairs now, but I now it was gone into in great detail in old books. I built one set of dancing stairs in a stairwell that was designed too small for a regular staircase, and they surprised everyone, including me, with how naturally comfortable they walked.

I did a google search, but had trouble finding any useful information on "dancing stairs", but did find this. The pivot point of the radius of each tread nose is a different point, but there is a formula for it. I think the design I used was in a 19th Century book, or reprint of. That was in 1980, so I don't remember all the details. They looked more like the right hand drawing here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=SY...rawing&f=false

[Paul Girouard]

Could the riser be screwed to the back side of the tread on the top steps? You’d have to pre-fit the pieces and then attach them in to the “L” shape , which would make them harder to get back in place.


Seeing you won’t have access to the back side of the treads and risers they both have to be fastened in place thru there faces, either glued and nailed , or glued , screwed , and plugged.

Which really leads to finishing all of it place after it’s installed.