[OP]
Member
There are still a couple local sources I need to ping before asking guys to drive 3-4 hours to quote, but thanks. Just trying to get a handle on if I want to try myself. The upside is I learn a new skill and have reason to buy new tools! Table saw would be nice to have around. I sold my last one after I got the CNC router. At the time I needed the space, but ripping sheets on a CNC router is about ten times and complicated as it should be.Originally Posted by Darcy Warner
Contributor
Are you going to be replacing the complete windows or just the sashes? If the latter, the existing thickness may constrain your glazing options. Most typically, sashes are 1 3/8" thick (most cope & stick bit sets are sized for this, though Amana makes a set that can be used with thicker material), which allows for a glass rabbet depth of only 9/16".
Poplar has little rot resistance, so would be a poor choice. For paint grade work, CVG Douglas first is fine, though has become expensive in recent years. For stain grade work, white oak or mahogany are common choices; with their open grain, however, these are not the best choices for work that will be painted.
In my experience fir is subject to tear out. Climb cutting the sticking profile solves that, but a power feeder is a good idea (if not an absolute necessity) for doing so safely.
One tricky part is the meeting rail where the top and bottom sashes come together. This may require that the bottom rail of the top sash be molded differently, without the interior profile. I forgot about this on the last set of sashes I made until I was ready to apply the ogee meeting rail pieces, had to cut the molded rails off & fit new, unmolded rails instead.
Last edited by Jim Morgan; 12-02-2018 at 1:53 PM.
-- Jim
Use the right tool for the job.
[OP]
Member
Good question. If the frames can be corrected to be square maybe that would reduce some work.
Here are a couple photos to give you an idea of the work.
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Sophie says open the window. I've managed to get a couple functioning, but they don't slide well at all.
Contributor
I've fixed worse, but don't do estimates, or deadlines, so sorry, no help on contract price. The replacement, handblown cylinder glass was about $800 per window unit (both sash) for these, by the time shipping was paid from Germany. They were painted shut too, and some replacement parts needed. They operate better than they ever have now, and have hidden weatherstripping.
This house is also in a Historic District, but it's a museum house, and not a residence.
Member
I doubt that is true, if it is it’s extremely short sighted by the historic district board.
Do they demand Shake roofs, nothing burns better than shakes or has a shorter life span with all the other options in roofing today than Cedar Shakes!
Contributor
No one thinks precision woodworking is hard when they are typing on a computer. Buy a table saw, make a mortising fixture, but a router and make a router table, buy the router tooling, buy a Festool Domino and start making mortises. Go ahead and make one for the hell of it (after spending $4,000) and see how easy it is for you.
[OP]
Member
don't need wavy glass. Looking for double pane. the windows are very drafty. Our heating bill last winter was worse than when we lived in Iowa! Multiple issues, like they didn't insulate exterior walls in Texas in the 1920's, but the windows aren't helping matters. Thanks all for the advice! I will keep doing research, but seems doable at least on a couple.
Contributor
Actually, wooden shingles last a long time if installed on purlins, so they can breathe. Here, Cypress shingles have lasted 150 years, more than a few times. The reason that the houses in Williamsburg were still standing when they started the restoration is that the remaining buildings had the original Cypress shingles on them, and varied in age around 150 years old.
On my website, there are some pictures of one we found under a Terne tin roof that had lasted 134 years, that would have been in good shape but for modern work done on the house, and a tree growing up against it on one side.
It's true though that Cedar shakes don't last any longer than anything else if installed according to the current recommended way. I have some on my house that I built in 1980, on purlins, that are still as good as when I installed them.
The term "shakes" is actually a modern term. Back when they were all made by hand, and even well into the machine age, they were always called "shingles".
If one is doing preservation, it needs to be done like it was originally. Otherwise, it's remodeling. Any Historic District I've ever had anything to do with was not very encouraging for remodeling.
Some parts of the country don't have a large fire danger just because of materials. No one would want a wooden roof on a house that burned a fireplace, and didn't clean out the chimney often. In early Philadelphia, there was a law requiring monthly chimney sweeping.
Member
Those all look repairable to me. I’ve repaired worse for sure.
If you don’t mind ending up with the existing windows , not insulated glass being the main down side , you should be able to restore those , which is a LOT more do-able than building new wood windows from scratch!
Theres also a company callex In-Dow their ads in Fine Home Building IIRC . That makes a storm
window that fits inside. Those would work with your “Histeric “ board better than storms on the exterior.
Contributor
I don't see much value in double pane. Too much money to net R2. Then a few years out start replacing fogged panes.
I like weather sealing and curtains.
[OP]
Member
page 4.6 The blue box summarizes the section.
http://historicfairmount.com/wp-cont...elines2014.pdf
People do whatever in the backyards. Front of the house cannot be altered in style at all. Side of the house seem to be a gray area. Our safest path is the stay 100% wood and keep the original style as much as possible. We could probably get away with partial wood. I redid our last porch with a bunch of Pella composite windows. The design had drain holes on the bottom side of the window frame for the rain! The bottom, meaning into your wall! So, I'm not real keen on what partial wood windows will be off the shelf. I'm guessing MDF and veneer like "hardwood" flooring at the big box stores. rant over.
[OP]
Member
I have a CNC router and I can stand them up to do the ends. I'm thinking I can do all that work on that machine, no? I was just going to pick up a table saw to get the blanks the right size.
Member
Shakes have been called Shake for many years : People confuse many things shakes and shingles are one.
All types of wood roofing applied to should be installed on what I was taught in the 1970’s as “skip sheathing “ which amounted to 1x4 boards installed with a 8 penny nail /2 1/2” space / between boards .
Purlins are structural roofing members.
With todays building codes they’ve come up with a matrix cloth to install about solid sheet goods used as roof sheathing , I doubt it works very well.
Cedar Shakes here in the PNW where common in the late 70’s , since the Spotted Owl outrage , where old growth forest and Cedar trees where taken off the you can cut them down list Cedar since say 1985 have become a joke in comparision to Cedar of the 1960’s.
Much like the Cyrpress you mentioned , my guess is even in the region Cypress grows , the trees they cut today are not comparable to those used at Colonial Williamsburg.
But shingle are sawn , shakes are spit. That’s the basic difference. One is thin , one if thicker. Shakes are sold as mediums and heavy’s based on thickness.
There more “difference’s” , but those are the main points.
A wood roof any where in CONUS in 2018 is a extremely poor choice of roofing material , for a variety of reasons.
IMO.
Types of shinglesEdit
Collage of different styles of wood shingles used in Chiloé architecture.
The simplest form of wood shingle is a rectangle about 16 inches (41 cm) long. The sides and butt of a shingle are often irregular; the sides may taper and the butt may not be square with the sides. Shingles that have been processed so that the butt is square to the sides are called rebutted and re-squared or rebutted and re-jointed shingles, often abbreviated R&R.
Shingles and shakes may be tapered, straight, split or sawn and any combination of these except straight-tapered. Different species and quality of wood are used as are different lengths and installation methods. Shakes and shingles may also be treated with wood preservatives and fire retardants before or after installation.
ShakesEdit
A shake roof in Romania
A shake is a basic wooden shingle made from split logs. Shakes have traditionally been used for roofing and siding applications around the world. Higher-grade shakes are typically used for roofing purposes, while the lower grades are used for siding. In either situation, properly installed shakes provide long-lasting weather protection and a rustic aesthetic, though they require more maintenance than some other more modern weatherproofing systems.
The term shake is sometimes used as a colloquialism for all wood shingles, though shingles are sawn rather than split. In traditional usage, "shake" refers to the board to which the shingle is nailed, not the shingle. Split wooden shingles are referred to as shag shingles.
Modern shinglesEdit
Modern wooden shingles, both sawn and split, continue to be made, but they differ from the historic ones. Modern commercially available shakes are generally thicker than the historic handsplit counterpart and are usually left "undressed" with a rough, corrugated surface. The rough-surface shake is often considered to be more "rustic" and "historic", but in fact this is a modern fashion.
Some modern shingles are produced in pre-cut decorative patterns, sometimes called fancy-cut shingles, and are available pre-primed for later painting. The sides of rectangular shingles may be re-squared and re-butted, which means they have been reworked so the sides are parallel and the butt is square to the sides. These are more uniform and are installed more neatly as a result.
Shingles are less durable than shakes, particularly in wet climates; shakes are finished with a drawknife or similar tool which leaves a smooth surface that resists water penetration, and this in turn slows the softening of wood by microorganisms. Also, the method of splitting shakes rather than sawing ensures only straight-grained pieces (which are much stronger and less likely to warp).
Member
Simple answer to a simple question , NO.
Member
1200 a window for a custom made wooden window doesn’t sound the least bit expensive at all and building wooden windows from scratch with no experience seems like a recipe to end up with a lot of knowledge on what not to do and sub par window sashes. Modern wood is a terrible exterior product compared to old growth wood and should never be used unless absolutely necessary. I would try using a more rot resisntent wood then pine or Douglas fir. Have a glass shop make a modern low e double pane panel and then build a frame and apply Muttons, this is your cheapest and easiest option. Probably not the best option but you have to make sacrifices to save money somewhere.
Historical committees are ridiculous by nature it seems but a good way to get around using a modern aluminum clad window that is still historically accurate is to tell them your existing wooden windows have lead paint on them and the lead time to source a replacement wooden window is unsafe to your family. Works here a lot now.
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