Push to wind and solar from fossil fuel

[Steve Demuth]

Interesting article, amazing that the in store logistics of a single grocery store requires a quantum computer.

The D-Wave / Save-On-Foods thing is a bit of a stunt. D-Wave and its founder Geordie Rose have bet big on a limited form of quantum computing based on quantum annealing - an analog to simulated annealing algorithms used in classical optimization problems. It's an interesting approach, but you can't program general algorithms with it. It happens, however to to be a fruitful approach to optimization problems - finding the parameters that yield the best result to a highly multidimensional problem.

So optimization for logistics is a perfect problem for Rose. And who has more complicated logistics than a food store, right? The thing is, the sense in which Rose's computers' optimization is better than what could have been accomplished with classical optimization is probably of minimal actual business impact.

But it makes for a catchy demonstration.

Meanwhile, the Google and IBM teams are solving the real problem of quantum error correction for a general purpose (gate-programmed) quantum computer. The reason they are talking about a million qubit computer is not because we have problems that need a million qubits, but because it takes a thousand cubits to manage the quantum error correction for a handful of actual qubits. So with a million qubit machine, you can do thousand qubit, generalized quantum algorithms.

Which ought to intimidate people a bit, because with a 1000 qubits, it's probably possible to break most of the encryption techniques that we use to make the internet reasonably secure. I really don't relish them solving this problem.

On the other hand, the same computer will be brilliant for useful science, like protein folding, searching huge configuration spaces, molecular design, etc.

Really cool stuff. I regret that I'm too old to do creative physics like this. I was once good at it, but those days are long gone, and now I have to get my kicks reading about others doing it, and solving far more mundane computational challenges myself.

[andrew whicker]

so there goes digital currency?

[Steve Demuth]

so there goes digital currency?

As we know them today, yes. Everything interesting about bitcoin is based on creative use of digital encryption techniques. Even the proof-of-work that drives the bitcoin farms is probably susceptible to being "cracked" by quantum search algorithms.

Code making / code breaking is always an arms race. The mathematicians doing the code making have had the upper hand for a couple of decades. May not be that way, at least for the well-off governments who can afford the high end quantum hardware, in the future.

[Doug Garson]

The D-Wave / Save-On-Foods thing is a bit of a stunt. D-Wave and its founder Geordie Rose have bet big on a limited form of quantum computing based on quantum annealing - an analog to simulated annealing algorithms used in classical optimization problems. It's an interesting approach, but you can't program general algorithms with it. It happens, however to to be a fruitful approach to optimization problems - finding the parameters that yield the best result to a highly multidimensional problem.

So optimization for logistics is a perfect problem for Rose. And who has more complicated logistics than a food store, right? The thing is, the sense in which Rose's computers' optimization is better than what could have been accomplished with classical optimization is probably of minimal actual business impact.

But it makes for a catchy demonstration.

Meanwhile, the Google and IBM teams are solving the real problem of quantum error correction for a general purpose (gate-programmed) quantum computer. The reason they are talking about a million qubit computer is not because we have problems that need a million qubits, but because it takes a thousand cubits to manage the quantum error correction for a handful of actual qubits. So with a million qubit machine, you can do thousand qubit, generalized quantum algorithms.

Which ought to intimidate people a bit, because with a 1000 qubits, it's probably possible to break most of the encryption techniques that we use to make the internet reasonably secure. I really don't relish them solving this problem.

On the other hand, the same computer will be brilliant for useful science, like protein folding, searching huge configuration spaces, molecular design, etc.

Really cool stuff. I regret that I'm too old to do creative physics like this. I was once good at it, but those days are long gone, and now I have to get my kicks reading about others doing it, and solving far more mundane computational challenges myself.

I could pretend to understand this but I'd probably end up looking dumber than I am. Not sure I could do it even in my prime, so now I get my kicks making sawdust and firewood with the occasional finished project.

[Bill Dufour]

Local grocery chain has paired with a company to use little robot self driving coolers to delver groceries within 1-2 miles of the store. Send in order, they load the cooler and it drives on the sidewalk to your house and unlocks. Not sure if it can deliver to more then one house before returning to the loading dock to be refilled. Interesting to see them wait at corners to cross street. I have seen them pull out then dart back when a car comes.
Bill D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuPAdNe1L1w

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

the prime problem with current alternative energy systems is every body thinks of wind and solar, but mostly as sources to create electricity. Electricity can be easily transported but requires special expensive storage systems. It is also highly inefficient to convert electricity into heat. Solar and wind also suffer the draw back of calm weather and night time. Ideas for use of tides, rising and falling to create electricity have been tried, but are disrupted by storm surges and other weather related problems. There are things the flow in seemingly unstoppable 24-7-365 reliability. Tesla wanted to use other energy that bombards the earth rain or shine or dead of night. People are still working on neutrino energy. (cosmic rays) Even 50 years ago, using the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic to turn a giant submerged turbine was proposed. It never stops, always moves along. There are magnetic waves that flow across the earth's surface all the time, and people have worked on harnessing that power. An auto mechanic in Ontario realized that when someone presses on the brakes in the car, the break lines suddenly heat up from the friction of the brake fluid flowing through the lines. He invented a windmill, that turned a system of beaters inside a drum of brake fluid, and the heat generated heated his hot water and helped heat his house. His system converted the mechanical energy directly into heat. skipping the wind turbine mechanical energy being converted to electricity and then electricity being converted by the water heater elements into heat to heat his hot water. It takes thinking out side the normal wind solar box that most of us think in.

[eugene thomas]

seems like as we go green we will be buying the windmills and such from countrys that building more coal plants. maybe the government should give trees to plant. i have 20 achers that have room but trees preaty exspensive.

[Doug Garson]

seems like as we go green we will be buying the windmills and such from countrys that building more coal plants. maybe the government should give trees to plant. i have 20 achers that have room but trees preaty exspensive.

Which country are you referring to? Most of the wind turbines installed in the US are made in the US. https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/art...out-wind-power

[Bernie Kopfer]

Just a few years ago the ideas and overall concepts of “green” energy were being dismissed as ridiculous, unattainable, unpatriotic and worse. Look where we are today! I am personally elated and hopeful that we will continue to move in this direction. Perhaps with the new leadership in this country we will use our vast intellectual and technological abilities to move towards a truly sustainable energy future that would benefit everyone on our one small planet.

[Doug Garson]

the prime problem with current alternative energy systems is every body thinks of wind and solar, but mostly as sources to create electricity. Electricity can be easily transported but requires special expensive storage systems. It is also highly inefficient to convert electricity into heat. Solar and wind also suffer the draw back of calm weather and night time. Ideas for use of tides, rising and falling to create electricity have been tried, but are disrupted by storm surges and other weather related problems. There are things the flow in seemingly unstoppable 24-7-365 reliability. Tesla wanted to use other energy that bombards the earth rain or shine or dead of night. People are still working on neutrino energy. (cosmic rays) Even 50 years ago, using the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic to turn a giant submerged turbine was proposed. It never stops, always moves along. There are magnetic waves that flow across the earth's surface all the time, and people have worked on harnessing that power. An auto mechanic in Ontario realized that when someone presses on the brakes in the car, the break lines suddenly heat up from the friction of the brake fluid flowing through the lines. He invented a windmill, that turned a system of beaters inside a drum of brake fluid, and the heat generated heated his hot water and helped heat his house. His system converted the mechanical energy directly into heat. skipping the wind turbine mechanical energy being converted to electricity and then electricity being converted by the water heater elements into heat to heat his hot water. It takes thinking out side the normal wind solar box that most of us think in.

Modern electric Hot water heaters are 90 to 95% efficient, only more efficient way to heat water is electric heat pump, gas Hot water heaters are only 60 to 70% efficient. Like to see an article on the Ontario mechanic story, brake lines don't heat up because of friction (there is no flow in a brake line) they heat up from compression.

[Fred Perreault]

We all got here from where we came thousands of years ago without oil, gasoline, and natural gas as we know it. But early man used the wind, abundant sunshine and flowing water to help get us here. They even lived in caves, taking advantage of the earth's warmth. If we are going to continue to populate earth we just may have to change our way of thinking and interacting with one another, and Mother Earth. Chang is difficult, but history shows that man has managed change quite well.

[Keith Outten]

We built one of the countries largest pumped storage facilities in Virginia back in the 70's in Bath County. Four concrete tubes 50 foot in diameter with a thousand foot drop from the upper to the lower lake. It was a monster job but it has paid off big time though the years because we have four nuclear reactors generating electricity here. It takes more energy to pump the water from the lower to the upper lake than we generate from the facility but we use excess nuclear power at night, nuclear plants can't be throttled back like coal or gas plants.

I don't see any way that pumped storage facilities will be viable in the future as nuclear powered electrical production becomes ancient history. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future, there isn't any other way IMO.

[Mike Henderson]

We built one of the countries largest pumped storage facilities in Virginia back in the 70's in Bath County. Four concrete tubes 50 foot in diameter with a thousand foot drop from the upper to the lower lake. It was a monster job but it has paid off big time though the years because we have four nuclear reactors generating electricity here. It takes more energy to pump the water from the lower to the upper lake than we generate from the facility but we use excess nuclear power at night, nuclear plants can't be throttled back like coal or gas plants.

I don't see any way that pumped storage facilities will be viable in the future as nuclear powered electrical production becomes ancient history. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future, there isn't any other way IMO.

Solar and wind, but especially solar, have times when they're overgenerating. During that time, (mid-day) water could be pumped to a storage facility and then used for generating at night.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

We built one of the countries largest pumped storage facilities in Virginia back in the 70's in Bath County. Four concrete tubes 50 foot in diameter with a thousand foot drop from the upper to the lower lake. It was a monster job but it has paid off big time though the years because we have four nuclear reactors generating electricity here. It takes more energy to pump the water from the lower to the upper lake than we generate from the facility but we use excess nuclear power at night, nuclear plants can't be throttled back like coal or gas plants.

I don't see any way that pumped storage facilities will be viable in the future as nuclear powered electrical production becomes ancient history. Hydrogen is the fuel of the future, there isn't any other way IMO.

Pumped storage can be also be used to store energy from solar collected during the day for use at night or to store energy from wind to use when the wind isn't blowing or to store excess energy from constant sources like geothermal to use during peak demand. Hydrogen isn't really a fuel, more of an energy storage medium like a battery. You make hydrogen from water or natural gas using electricity then consume the hydrogen in a combustion engine or fuel cell to produce electricity or useful work. There are smart people (including Elon Musk)on both sides arguing whether hydrogen is truly the "fuel" of the future. Not sure nuclear is going away, there are some smart people (including Bill Gates) investing in developing the next generation of nuclear power which overcomes the concerns with current nuclear technology.
Very interesting times for development of new power generation technologies.

[Jim Matthews]

It takes thinking out side the normal wind solar box that most of us think in.

It does take a grasp of classical physics. This can be difficult when you have any relevant research to follow, or working prototypes to examine.

"It is also highly inefficient to convert electricity into heat." - yikes