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Thread: Kind of a Complex Gloat. (Long)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Oak Ridge, NC
    Posts
    458

    Kind of a Complex Gloat. (Long)

    Several years ago I purchased a used Unisaw at a county school auction. It has a 240V, 3 hp, three phase motor. In order to run it in my home shop on single phase power I needed a phase converter. I got to digging around and at a local scrap metal yard picked up a 5 hp. 3 phase motor and used it as the basis of a rotary phase converter. Over a month or so I worked out a starting system for the rotary converter motor so that all I had to do was throw a switch and the phase converter started. Then I could go to the tablesaw and start it. I also, at the same junk yard picked up a Cincinnati Fan 6" blower and built a cyclone and installed a dust collection system. The blower also had a three phase motor, 2 hp, so that fit in with the 5 hp rotary converter, 3 hp on the tablesaw and 2 hp on the blower. It worked well, very well. However it got to be a little annoying having to start the phase converter if I wanted to go over to my bandsaw or jointer and run them. I had to start the phase converter, start the dust collector and then use the tool. Through some of Terry Hatfield's work I found the guy on ebay who had the 2 hp single phase motors that work very well on a dust collector and at a very attractive price. I bought one. It had the correct C Face mounting but the motor shaft on the new motor was 7/8" and the motor shaft on my old three phase motor was 5/8". I had to take the impeller and have it remachined to fit the new motor shaft. Once that was done, I had the dust collector so that I didn't need to start a 5 hp motor in order to use it. Improvement, now I can go to any machine push a remote keychain type button and the DC runs.

    The next issue was the rotary converter had to run for the table saw to start. If I was working on a project and using the tablesaw off an on over a couple of hours, I had two choices. Start a 5 hp rotary converter and leave it running the whole time or each time I needed the table saw, start the converter, start the table saw, cut, stop the table saw, stop the rotary converter. A real PITA.

    I started reading up on Variable Frequency Drives. You can, if you choose the correct type, run a three phase motor on single phase current with a VFD. I started watching ebay again and found an Allen Bradly 1333 DAA VFD, used, taken out of a processing plant in running condition. A little research on line told me that that particular drive which is a 240V input drive, can take single phase current and produce three phase current. With 3 phase input it is rated at 10ph, with single phase input it is rated at 3hp. A perfect fit for my tablesaw. I bid and I got it for $71. The manual for this unit was last updated in 1988. But it works. I had done some temporary wiring of the unit to the tablesaw over the last week just to make sure that it worked as it should. The seller offered a 7 day return on it if it was not functioning properly. This past weekend I ran the permanent wiring and got it set up the way I wanted it.

    Anyone out there who has seen a three phase machine and not bought it because of the electrical current issue? Passed up a great deal because what it would cost to get a single phase motor for a machine? This is the cure and it works wonderfully well. VFD's have all kinds of features that you can use to make running a motor very user friendly. For example. I have set the start sequence to take 2 seconds from pushing the on button till the motor reaches full RPM. This is like a soft start and doesn't make the shop lights go dim when I start the saw. The highest amperage I have seen the motor pull when starting is 6 amps. I have set the stop sequence to go from full RPM's to full dead stop in 1.5 seconds. No longer I have to wait for the blade to coast to a stop to change a set up or open her up to change the blade. I am no electrician but what this thing does is send short bursts of reverse current to brake the motor rotation. You can stop the motor rotation even faster by changing some settings but, I found that if you stop it too fast, the blade assembly wants to keep spinning while the motor is stopping and you get a little belt slip and a squeal, not much but a little. Playing around I stopped the blade rotation in one second. I think if I would make the belts a little tighter it would work without the squeak, but really see no point at this time in doing that.

    I used the remote start contacts in the VFD to hook the normal start/stop switch on the saw. I even used a spare set of contacts in the VFD to put a little red light over the shop door. The light is on when the VFD is powered up, it is so quiet that you can't hear it running. It is just, hopefully, a reminder to me when leaving the shop, to turn the VFD off. When you turn it off the light goes out.

    When the VFD is running and the saw isn't it draws 0.1 amps of power. It basically is like having a computer running, very little power usage. When the table saw is running it only draws the amperage that the motor normally would draw. In my case 3.4 amps with no load on the saw. No longer will I feel guilty about the rotary converter running while no work is being done.

    This is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Santa Barbara County, CA
    Posts
    499
    Sounds like you got your money's worth out of that $71.

    Good going.

  3. #3

    I run convertors also

    My dust collector, Hemple hydraulic lathe, 20" band saw, overhead pin router, all are 3 phase. As you say, there are some bargains out there in used 3phase equipment. I usually have my convertor running 3-4 hours a day. Doesn't seem to change the electric bill.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Oak Ridge, NC
    Posts
    458
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clardy
    My dust collector, Hemple hydraulic lathe, 20" band saw, overhead pin router, all are 3 phase. As you say, there are some bargains out there in used 3phase equipment. I usually have my convertor running 3-4 hours a day. Doesn't seem to change the electric bill.

    Steve,
    I don't understand. If you cannot run your machinery without the converter running, how do you know if not running the converter would change the electric bill? My 5 hp rotary converter drew about 3 amps running all by it's self. When it was running it was using electricity and I know dang well that Duke Power is still reading the meter.

  5. #5

    Yo Mac

    Yes, converter does use elec. Did not mean it that way. What I meant was, when I power on the equipment, [converter already running], there is no noticeable meter wheel spinning off the pole. My electric useage is about the same each month, 100.00-120.00, [this includes my house too] whether I use the collector more, the lathe more. It just doesn't vary much. My converter is a homebuilt 5hp. I can kick on the collector, 1-1/2 3-phase, or the lathe which has a 2hp and a 3hp motor, and there is no change in the meter speed. Now granted, if you put a meter on it to check it, there probably would be some change, but just eyeballing it, no change.
    What I'm saying is that if I run the lathe and collector together, total 6 1/2 hp, for a solid two weeks, there is no change in my elec. bill compared to not running the lathe at all the next month.
    To me it seems that whatever is being powered by the converter, basically uses no more elec. than what it takes to run the converter.
    Am I making any sense out of this? Steve


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Oak Ridge, NC
    Posts
    458
    Steve,
    Sure you make sense. I am not an electrical engineer, someone out there must know about electrical usage and phase converters. Perhaps they will jump on and tell us what is going on.

    It is odd, but I can understand plumbing. You can run two lines, put in valves and other stuff and it all makes sense. You open a spigot and water comes out.

    But electricity just leaves me way behind. You can't see the dern stuff, you just have to have faith that it is there or do something that lights your fire to know it is there. When it is not, you got to track it down and don't know you have found it unless something else tells you it is there. It has two pipes (wires) just like water, but then they tell me that 60 times each second the stuff changes direction of flow. Can you imagine what plumbing would be like if water did that? You can cut the wire and touch the wire and not get shocked, as long as you aren't grounded. You cut a water pipe and, well you get the idea.

    Can you imagine trying to explain electricity to Daniel Boone?

  7. #7

    I wouldn't have a chance trying to explain it

    to Old Dan. Ha. I have always done all my own wiring, 3 phase included. Have learned some things on the way. I am not an engineer but can get it done. To code? Well, I try to make it safe, but there are no codes here believe it or not. Only code we have in this county is a sewer code. If you own less than three acres, you have to install one of them $7500.00 turd pumper cleaner upper thingies. lol.
    I had a elec. problem came up about 6 months after moving into my new shop I wired. I had a temperary 220 receptacle hanging out of one of my sub boxes, have 3 main boxes in shop, and have conduit along one wall with 110 volt plugins on it. I happened to bump that temp box one day, it got against the conduit and slightly arched. Wow, whats this I said. I opened the breaker box it was attached to, and the breaker was off. ???
    I thought, this cannot be, maybe one side of the breaker is still hot. Got my meter out and it was off. But I still had this slight arc when it touched the box to the conduit. Well, I left it as it was, but it bugged me for a couple weeks. I finally just took it off as I no longer needed it.
    One day the wife came in the shop office and told me the door shocked her. Metal building and doors. I went up to the door and opened it and nothing. Couple days later, one of my sons came on in and told me the same thing. I went and checked, nothing. I then told him to go out and back in like he did before. As he came in, he stepped on the metal threshold, one foot still outside, and it shocked him. Then I discovered than when I come in, long legged me, I do not step on the threashold, so it never shocked me. I put these two problems together, and got to thinking maybe the building and elec. boxes had a ground problem. Well, it did. I had never installed a groung rod outside. Oh well, another lesson learned. Steve


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Oak Ridge, NC
    Posts
    458
    Steve,
    No codes! Enjoy!

    Round here you have to ask permission to burn some limbs that fell off your trees during a storm. They call it a "Burn Permit". Now you don't actually get a piece of paper. You just call someone somewhere and say, "I need a burn permit." They ask you some questions and you answer them and then you get a burn permit, I guess. Never done it and don't intend to. Getting way off topic here, sorry. (At least I am talking about burning wood.)

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