Update on saw stop

[Paul Downes]

Just to add to the fire. Ron meadows raises some good questions. I work as an engineer and we get vendors trying to sell their amazing and glorious devices to us on a regular basis. Sometimes they actually have a good product! Many times we destroy their 'cash cow idea' just by looking at blueprints. What works in pristine lab conditions often fails miseably on the shop floor. I also wonder what their testing criteria was. Given that my electrical engineer partner has weird body circuitry from getting juiced a time or two I doubt this device would do him any good.
It sounds as if the saw stop has a plunger that rams into the blade on edge? Because bio-voltages are very small, I wonder how they isolate the acuator from inducted current, stray voltage etc., etc? How well does it stand up to vibration and saw dust/moisture contamination? While the brake on my circular saw still works, I've had others ask if it was working 'cause theirs quit a while ago'. Like most everyone else here, I don't want more regulations and "saftey" equipment mandated by good intentions or unscrupulous, money oriented "do-gooders". Did anyone notice that the hole in the ozone layer was closeing up. Just a couple 'O points.

[Paul Downes]

Just to add to the fire. Ron Meadows raises some good questions. I work as an engineer and we get vendors trying to sell their amazing and glorious devices to us on a regular basis. Sometimes they actually have a good product! Many times we destroy their 'cash cow idea' just by looking at blueprints. What works in pristine lab conditions often fails miseably on the shop floor. I also wonder what their testing criteria was. Given that my electrical engineer partner has weird body circuitry from getting juiced a time or two I doubt this device would do him any good.
It sounds as if the saw stop has a plunger that rams into the blade on edge? Because bio-voltages are very small, I wonder how they isolate the acuator from inducted current, stray voltage etc., etc? How well does it stand up to vibration and saw dust/moisture contamination? While the brake on my circular saw still works, I've had others ask if it was working 'cause theirs quit a while ago'. Like most everyone else here, I don't want more regulations and "saftey" equipment mandated by good intentions or unscrupulous, money oriented "do-gooders". Did anyone notice that the hole in the ozone layer was closeing up. Just a couple 'O points.

[Brad Schafer]

i just went to their website and indulged in all the marketeze & videos (T3 is sure nice!) :)

knee jerk reaction (right leg) - the product is really slick. i don't see why the thing couldn't be modified somewhat to be a retrofit or an add-on; it's not like it would have to take up that much room (or work by dropping the blade; a simple stall would do just dandy).

(BTW - i got to witness 1st hand my grandpa losing the ends of 2 of his fingers in a TS accident years ago; this product could have prevented that ... but, so could have a little more caution, better lighting, and a lot less crap laying around the shop.)

knee jerk reaction (left leg) - agree with earlier posts that the marketing is lousy. using legislation to make a buck is a (liberal) crock (sorry - strong opinion held here). even if they really are being altruistic with their safety claim, there's an old saying about the folly of idiot-proofing, as the Universe is always building better idiots. and somewhere, someday, a better idiot will be built that will manage to whipsaw himself in spite of this product.

my advice (not that anyone listens) - give up trying to legislate profit and work on building a workable retrofit. i won't run out to buy a new saw, but i might drop $100 on a safety device.

my 2 centavos,


b

[Steve Clardy]

I still think its a great idea. I have followed the reviews for a year or so.
But I still disagree with it being shoved down my throat. Steve

[Lee Schierer]

I wrote back to them voicing some of the concerns. Here is my email to them and their response:

Thanks for the response. I posted it on one of the woodworking forums. However, I don't agree with your degree of confidence in American consumers.

If a typical contractor is using a saw with Saw Stop installed and it is triggered by his finger, he will most likely shrug it off, change blades and find a way to bypass it so he can get back to work and finish his project on time. The same is likely to happen with the consumers who buy the low end table saws.

Also, having a device such as saw stop on a saw will make people less cautious around the blade, after all they are protected. Less caution is not a good thing around a table saw.
Many newer blades are coated with teflon which is a pretty good insulator. While the teeth are exposed, the arbor and arbor washers may not be making a metal to metal contact with the blade. Does your device still work reliably under those conditions?

Mandating safety is a poor marketing approach. It has been tried with seat belts, air bags, lawnmowers and hasn't worked there. Take a walk through your neighborhood and see how many lawn mowers still have functional factory installed safety devices. Watch the next 10 cars you pass and see if all the occupants are wearing seat belts.

Good luck with your device, I think you are paddling up the wrong stream in your approach to legislate its use. Make a saw and get it on the market. If it is a good saw and the price is competitive, you will make your fortune and still save accidents. If you're not after fortune, then make your patents public domain so anyone can use the idea.



"Thanks for the email.

We agree that consumers may try to bypass the system if it is triggered and
a new cartridge in unavailable. We are doing what we can to make sure the
saw only works when the safety system is functioning.

We think people will still be cautious with their table saws because our
system detects contact with the blade, and it is hard to touch a spinning
blade even when you know the saw has SawStop. Believe me, I have done it.

The Teflon coating may prevent the arbor and washers from making conductive
contact with the blade, but there will still be capacitive coupling, and
that is what we use. So yes, our saw will work reliably under that
condition. Nevertheless, we test for a signal on the blade, and if we do not
see it for whatever reason, then our saw will not start.

Thanks again for your comments. Despite what some people may think, our
number one goal is to do exactly what you recommend, make and sell a top
quality saw. We agree that is the best way to make our technology available.

David Fanning"




They seem like they will respond to your questions, so I suggest those of you that have questions or concerns direct them to the source instead of asking others that know little of the product or the amount of testing and development that has gone into it. Their direct email is: info@sawstop.com

[Paul Geer]

David Fanning of the makers SawStop said:

"We agree that consumers may try to bypass the system if it is triggered and
a new cartridge in unavailable. We are doing what we can to make sure the
saw only works when the safety system is functioning."


So you need a new cartridge for every "trigger", Right?

I don't like the sound of that Here we go again, like they tried to do with seat belts the first time out except the auto once the seat belts are "clicked" will run.

[Ed Weiser]

I find it difficult to remain open minded about SawStop's motives in their petition of the CPSC. Now that their saws are nearly in production, a successful CPSC petition requiring the technology on all new TS sold would put them at least 2 year or more ahead of the major manufacturers. Their's would be a "market-proven" product. If the CPSC approves this petition I would not be surprised to see a flurry of lawsuits. On the other hand where are Delta and Jet/Powermatic in voicing their objections to the petition (unless they already know the outcome)? Almost a plot for a suspense novel...

Ed Weiser

[Howard Barlow]

I emailed my opinion and got pretty much the same response. My opinion was not supportive of their quest.

[Guy Kowalski]

OK....my turn....

1. If their product is so good....then which one of THEM is going to stick their hand in a running saw to test the device?

2. Each person carries different amounts of electrical current, meaning not the same for every person.....what if I don't have enough current in my body to trip the device?

3. I am in 100% agreement with Steve....if it's for safety and not for profit, then donate the technology.

4. It's all a marketing scheme any way and if teeny-bopers are getting hurt while in the school shop?.....then it is just like it was when I was in shop....the instructor was on break or in the instructors office and nowhere to be found inside the actual shop.

5. What about spinning router bits, spinning skillsaw blades, drill bits, poking your hand with a screwdriver?

Let's face it....some people will be more carefull than others, i.e. some woodworks I know do NOT have all their digits any longer. With a suposedly grand safety device....many will be too relaxed when working with the tools and injury's will abound.

<B>The best safety device ever?</B>

<font size="+1" color="blue"><B>Education, Education, Training and care enough about yourself to "think" before the cut.</B></font>

'nuff said......

I have seen them do exactly that at a woodworking show in New Jersey. As stupid as it seems the rep jammed his hand into the spinning blade and came out with just a small cut, more like a scratch. You also have no understanding on how the thing works. You seem to be okay with someone loosing a digit. I am sorry but I am not. I could think of worse things that could be forced on us. Tell it to the guy on Woodnet that may loose some function in his hand due to nerve damage when his hand contacted the saw blade. Sure education and thought are very important but then there are also accidents. Let me tell ya buddy, if you think this device is a bad thing.....well, I don't want to say anything I am sorry for so I will keep my mouth shut.

[Howard Barlow]

Let me tell ya buddy, if you think this device is a bad thing.....well, I don't want to say anything I am sorry for so I will keep my mouth shut.

Guy,
Nobody thinks this is a bad device. This is simply a manufacturer who couldn't get the public, or manufacturers, to run to them with cash. Now they will try to get the government to force it on us. They aren't trying to save fingers, they are trying to sell sawstops.

[Ed Falis]

Guy,
Nobody thinks this is a bad device. This is simply a manufacturer who couldn't get the public, or manufacturers, to run to them with cash. Now they will try to get the government to force it on us. They aren't trying to save fingers, they are trying to sell sawstops.

Hi Howard,

I still find myself wondering whether this move by the SawStop people wasn't a desperation move in reaction to being locked out by the big boys, because it isn't good for their bottom line.

This isn't quite the conspiracy theory some have alluded to, where the manufacturers are explicitly colluding, but they could all decide independently that this particular piece of equipment isn't good for their profits, especially wrt liability. The device may still be good for users of saws and other power equipment.

So, this could be one of those classic cases where something good doesn't happen because the "free market" doesn't have infinite wisdom, especially when quarterly performance is what executives are evaluated on. That's the kind of situation that has typically brought in government intervention if the situation was "serious" enough.

There are a range of philosophies about the exact tradeoff on where government intervention is a good or bad thing. But contrary to what seems to be the prevailing attitude these days (and which plays right into the hands of corporations that do abuse the public), it's not always a bad thing in and of itself. Each situation needs to be evaluated on its own terms.

Personally, I don't think what these people did is such a bad thing, as you can probably tell from this rant. I've seen some mightily snakey business practices in my 25 years in the software business. So, I'm willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt for now.

Just some different thoughts, while still respecting your point of view on this.

- Ed

[Bill Esposito]

Hi Howard,
I still find myself wondering whether this move by the SawStop people wasn't a desperation move in reaction to being locked out by the big boys, because it isn't good for their bottom line.
- Ed

Ed,

I have to respectively dissagree with you This device, while pretty cool, is just impractical. We are not talking about simply adding seat belts as some have alluded to. We are talking about a device which completly redesigns the most complex and costly part of a table saw. There are plenty of inventions which just arent practical or marketable and this is one of them. These guys are trying to compensate for the fact that they havent built the better mousetrap by trying to get it legislated into the marketplace.

[Dave Anderson]

I can't help myself...

Look folks - I'm all for safety but this whole scenario reeks.

First, I'm convinced that they are attempting to force Draconian measures upon us via Federal Mandate. I have read <b>all</b> the sawstop threads on ALL the forums and most agree that they have a good idea but don't like their shenanigans.

However, I'm not sure I even like their product, safety or no. Will their devise prevent injury - yes - at least we hope so. But look at it this way: Their devise will self-destruct, destroy your saw blade OR MORE (arbor, trunion, etc.) costing you potentially HUNDREDS of dollars to fix and get back to your profession or hobby. Think about what happens to a car going 100 mph and hits a 30ft thick wall. That wall aint movin! The sawstop does the same thing to your tablesaw. A beefier saw like a Uni or 66 will likely suffer less damage than a contractor saw but damage will be done, rest assured.

I'm not willing to pay that price - and don't bother with the "your finger (hand, arm) is surely worth a hundred bucks or so" argument. Of course it is but that's not the point here.

I wouldn't use their product if they paid ME.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Ed Falis]

Respectfully acknowledged, Bill

- Ed

[Charlie Kocourek]

I've seen the saw, I've seen a demo, I've read reviews written by people who have actually used this saw, and then I ordered one for myself.

My #1 criteria was "is it a high quality piece of equipment?" I have never heard a bad word about the quality of the saw. In fact, everything I have heard is that this is an exceptionally high quality and well built machine.

My #2 criteria was safety. Well, the gadget does seem to work and it does come with a very well designed riving knife.

Criteria #3 Does the company stand by it's product. So far they do. It does concern me that this is a very small and very new company, but so far so good.

Criteria #4 Dust collection. Sounds like it is as good or better than other saws on the market today.

Finally, way way down my list is politics. I am more concerned about the quality of the saw and the safety of my family (who will also use this saw) than I am about politics.

I am not here to offend anyone and you guys have a right to your opinion. In fact, these guys may very well be as profit oriented as you say. I just enjoy woodworking.