TORMEK Policy Change and Amazon.com

[Michael Gibbons]

Jeff has openly told everyone Jets weak points in regards to the design features that they have versus Tormek. If you are willing to live with them, and will not kick yourself for your mistake, then by all means go and purchase the Jet. If not, spend the extra cash and get the original. Plain and simple.

[Gary Keedwell]

well said ken ! you nailed it!

Well, when I go to the grocery store for my staples, I like to stroll down the no, no aisle and check out the potato chips and such. There is a brand that LOML and I have purchased forever. Most of the National brands are competively priced. However, there is a couple of semi-local chips with fancy labels and high prices. Once in a great while we will splurge and buy a bag of the "yuppie chips" as LOML calls them.
Well, every where we go they are expensive. Is that price fixing? NO. The manufacturer sets the price he wants to sell to the supermarket, who in turn sell to us for a profit.
If nobody buys them, they will go out of business. Apparently there is enough people who like them enough to buy them on a regular basis.
Do we cry and complain that the potato chips are too high in price and therefore it is "price fixing". No. We just stride over to the ones we usually buy and put them in our cart.
If you make something, you can charge what you want. If it is a good product and people are willing to pay for it....that is called Capitalism. If you want government controlled prices...you will have socialism.
If an individual does not want to pay for a quality item, like Tormek, then don't!!!!

Respectfully
Gary K.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As Gary said.............a manufacturer has the right to charge what they think is a fair price for their product and it is not price fixing....

Is it price fixing that a Mercedes costs more than a VW?...........

Let it go!

[Chris Barton]

Jeff has openly told everyone Jets weak points in regards to the design features that they have versus Tormek. If you are willing to live with them, and will not kick yourself for your mistake, then by all means go and purchase the Jet. If not, spend the extra cash and get the original. Plain and simple.

Michael,

Not to overly belabor this point but, Jeff gave us his opinions in the comparison and if I recall correctly, in a differing portion of this thread there is a link to at least one side by side comparison of the two machines. Jeff is a vendor for Tormek so, there could be some bias in his opinion. Let everyone go out and make an informed choice and buy the machine that best fits their needs. So far the porported "weak points" have yet to be demonstrated to be actual deficiencies in the machine. The suggestion that purchasing the Jet is somehow an inferior choice doesn't seem to be grounded in evidence or fact.

[Steve Sawyer]

Price fixing means that a distributor is cut off if they discount prices below acceptable levels

I'd like to disagree with you on that, Jeff.

Price fixing is where manufacturers or service providers collude amongst themselves to artificially inflate prices.

What you're describing (and what Tormek may be doing) is reducing or eliminating marketing channel conflict - where some of a company's (valued) distributors get PO'd because they find themselves in competitition with other distributors offering the same product, and react by dropping the manufacturer's product line in favor of another in which there is either less price competition, or which they believe they can more easily differentiate on features and benefits rather than price.

"Price fixing" is illegal. Enforcing a minimum price, or requiring sales of product at the MSRP is perfectly legitimate. Ever notice how some products are the same exact price no matter where you find them? Take for example Yakima roof racks. Every distributor sells them for exactly the same price; there is no discounting. Anyone who tries to discount them would probably find themselves in violation of their distributor agreement with Yakima and could no longer carry the line.

Manufacturers will often, in exchange for the pricing requirement, give distributors exclusive territories, though this more often happens in business and industrial products than consumer products.

In any case, Tormek's moves might be an indication that they believe that they will do better in the long run by exercising more control over their distributors, combat price erosion from distributor competition, and improve customer service and responsiveness.

This is all part of that segment of the marketing field called "channel management".

[Jeff Farris]

I'd like to disagree with you on that, Jeff.

Price fixing is where manufacturers or service providers collude amongst themselves to artificially inflate prices.

You are exactly right, Steve. And, if I recall correctly, your point was brought up by someone else several months ago in a response in this same thread.

[Ken Shoemaker]

The closet thing to "eternal life on earth" is this debate.... Give it a rest already. It all boils down to Got Money = Tormek, Got No Money = Get Some Stones and quit whinning

[Gary Hedges]

While I understand and appreciate your comments about the potential for price fixing. I also understand, as a salesperson, that when price is the only thing that matters to people shopping for anything, then they are setting themselves up for a big fall.
The blade cuts both ways. Getting the lowest price may mean no warranty, no support, unique(not supported) hardware etc. For some things this may be fine but if you want to be able to repair something, return a faulty product etc, you better read the fine print before making that price based purchase. Even Walmart has tightened their return policies as have many companies because of abusive something-for-nothing customers.
As a computer sales person we had people who borrowed laptop computers from us repeatedly. (Bought the laptop then returned it once their business trip/demo was over) In the end that resulted in a very strict return policy on laptop computers.
I may have problems with the price of the Tormek machines but I do respect the policy they have established. Folks need to make a choice about their buying decision and their needs. Buy the Cheapest thing going and toss it when it breaks or a part wears out OR cough up the bigger bucks for a heavyduty product from a company that has parts availablity and compatibility commitment for the long term.
"You buys your ticket, You takes your chances."

[Ben Rafael]

Not selling on amazon is bologna. The nearest store to me that sells Tormek is about a 2 hour drive, in hellish traffic, which I am not willing to make but once every 2 years or so. I buy about 90% of my woodworking tools online since I live in this woodworking wasteland. It would be nice to have a knowledgable dealer near me, but this is not reality and I am sure I am not the only one in this situation.

[Don Hein]

Perhaps Tormek's choice had as much or more to do with where the tool is built as with where it's sold? Maybe Tormek does not wish to manufacture in China? Is Tormek big/experienced/savvy enough to match up with Jet while playing Jet's game?

IMO, in general, tool advice from a hardware store salesperson usually is not especially authoritative, and may be biased toward encouraging a sale. In forums, posts which seek or share personal experiences and opinions about tools rarely parrot the views of salespeople, and certainly are not viewed as gospel. At least, I hope not.

Someone here mentioned Stihl as being possibly a distribution/sales model for Tormek. In my neighborhood, Stihl is sold at rent-it centers and farm-and-garden stores. The countermen I've dealt with at these stores over the years did not show broad knowledge of the Stihl equipment I've purchased, and in fact some have been, shall we say, clue-deprived.

When I contemplate a tool purchase, this and other forums are the information sources of choice. Users have no axe-grinding jig; sellers might.

[Nancy Laird]

Sounds like Bovine Excrement to me Their move is tantamount to price fixing.

No, Ken. It's called fair-trading, and it's more than Tormek that's doing this. Steel City does it too---keeps their dealers honest!!

Nancy (37 days)

[David Weaver]

Do you really like dealing with clueless order takers?

When I'm dealing with something that I've done a lot of research on, I like to shop "best price", regardless of where the order is coming from.

When I'm shopping for something that I don't know about, then I shop where I can get help and support.

When I'm shopping where I'm buying something that I know about but can't transport, then I still prefer to do local in case there are any complications.

I tend to side with those on here who are guessing that it has to do more with profitability than service. But what do we have to work on - a letter that is in no way unbiased, and a hunch. We could all be wrong. The profitability aspect could be trying to have more influence on retail prices, or it could be just trying to limit returns - or maybe a combination of both.

I would imagine that the number of returns coming from amazon is greater than what comes from a brick and mortar store, and the demand for a discount for volume and the right to price sale prices at levels that aren't tasteful to other retailers is probably greater.

If they need to make the move to stay in business in the long run, more power to them.

EDIT: boy was I late to the game in this one - I thought this was a new post until after I posted my reply.

[David Weaver]

There have to still be other places that can sell you one over the internet.

[Ben Rafael]

There have to still be other places that can sell you one over the internet.

There are at least 2 that I know of. Which makes taking them away from Amazon a ridiculous act.
My point is that I have no reasonable option to go view most wwing tools at a place where the help is knowledgable and can provide support, so removing an online seller merely because they have no storefront reduces my(and many other peoples) options to purchase tormek and it's accesories.
Without amazon selling tormek you will likely never see a sale on tormek until they are replacing the current model.

[Matt Lentzner]

Seems to me that Tormek is just following the business model that Festool uses. The high end is less price sensitive and more service sensitive. They can be the "best", but not necessarily the "best value". Of course, "best value" is very subjective and user dependant. I doubt they can compete even in the mid-range considering the labor costs they have. Certainly, for some people, it *is* the best value and those people should buy it. If it's too expensive for what you would get, then don't.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they lose money on the machine and only make it back on the accessories. I have a feeling that Festool is in the same boat, hence, the proprietary accessories. I doubt they are making any obscene profits, and they certainly don't owe anybody a lower price. They are priced in a way that provides maximum benefit to the company - which by definition will be too high for some.

Matt