Japanese Chisels

[Bob Johnson2]

I recently bought a couple Matsumura dovetail chisels (1/4" and 1/2") and tried them out today on some soft maple drawers. After checking the as delivered bevel and finding it at 25° I sharpened them using the 25°. Used the smaller of the 2 for a couple tails and found that the center of the edge had chipped off. Can anyone tell me if I have the wrong amount of bevel or these are just too brittle for hardwood? They are billed as rc64, which very well may be too brittle. The attached image didn't come out to hot but I included it anyway.

[Mike Henderson]

In "The Complete Guide to Sharpening", Leonard Lee recommends 30 degrees for Japanese chisels. He comments that smaller angles will lead to chipping of the edge.

You also want to take into account how narrow the chisel is, especially if you're going to hit it with a mallet. With a narrow chisel, the force of the mallet blow is concentrated in a smaller area, so you may need a larger angle, maybe 35 degrees.

Mike

[Jim Dunn]

Or a smaller mallet?? Can't help you with included or excluded angles, let alone help with sharpening, sorry.

Jim

[Bob Johnson2]

Thanks Mike, guess I'll try 30° and see how that works. I use a smallish leather mallet so the mallet size shouldn't be much of an issue.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Bob, my experience with Japanese chisels is abysmal, they seem to chip even if I just look at them. I 'm sure its partially my technique, but they are very brittle and can stand very little prying action. Lots of people love 'em, but I just have had no luck.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Bob,

I agree with the 30` bevel. I've found with most of the Japanese chisels I have that it takes a couple r so sharpenings before you get a good solid edge on them. I don't know anything about metalurgy so just assuming that the edges are brittle due to heat treating and once you get into the meat of the chisel it's alot stronger.

Brent

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Bob--as the others have said, try honing a 30 degree micro bevel. It won't take much length to the micro bevel to strengthen the edge. If you have a honing guide it will make it pretty quick and easy.

Take care, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Just to emphasize the 30 degree bevel others have recommended, not only did my Matsumura DT chisels come with a 30 degree bevel, but this is the bevel angle recommended for Japanese chisels. I have not come across one with a 25 degree bevel before (the steel is too brittle to deal with such a "low" angle, I guess).

My Matsumuras have never chipped inspite of hammering them through hard Aussie woods.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charlie Mastro]

I have been using Japanese chisels for over 25 years, our shop in Seattle was a block from Tashiro's Hardware and I bought my first chisels and saws from Frank in the early 80's.

All my western tools have all taken a back seat to my Japanese tools and I have never looked back. As with any tool you can't judge it until you've taken time to get to know it. Brent was right, when a tool is new it sometimes takes a few sharpenings to "tame" the blade as the edge of cutting tool is often brittle from tempering and you need to get past that. As other's have said increase the angle until the chipping stops which in turn will allow for a few more sharpenings. I say forget the micro bevel just regrind the blade to the proper angle.

As for striking the chisel, use a hammer. These chisels are made to be struck with a hammer and I never saw either of my teachers use anything else. I was told that a wooden mallet did not deliver the same power that a hammer does and if you want to get the work done quickly you want to move as much wood as possible. That being said you may not be using the right chisel for the job. A bench chisel might be a better choice if you are removing a lot of wood. Then use the dovetail for what it was designed for to get into tight places.

As for prying with the chisels Dennis, not a good idea, they are cutting tools not pry bars. That technique may well work with a softer western chisel but is still not a good idea.

Japanese tools are not for everyone. It takes work and some understanding of how to use and care for them. If you are really interested in understanding more about these wonderful tools Toshio Odate’s book “Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit, and Use” pretty much sums it up in the title. These tools do have Spirit, and Tradition that is sometimes not easy for westerners to understand.

There is also a Japanese Tool Forum link that has a lot of information on it but not nearly the volume of posts as this one. I suggest you do what I did and read all the old posts.

I hope no one was offended by anything I said.

Charlie Mastro
Mastro Woodworking & Design

[Mike Wenzloff]

...As other's have said increase the angle until the chipping stops which in turn will allow for a few more sharpenings. I say forget the micro bevel just regrind the blade to the proper angle.
...
I hope no one was offended by anything I said.

The micro bevel to begin with is just to save two things, one is sharpening time as a micro bevel establishing the new angle is simply quicker to produce, and second to not waste all that steel--it represent many sharpenings to fully establish the new angle.

And no one here is/should be offended--it's a great thing to have differing experiences shared.

Take care, Mike

[Charlie Mastro]

Mike,

I agree it is quicker to produce and would establish where the edge would stop chipping but I don't like to use jigs to sharpen and a micro bevel is almost impossible to do otherwise. That being said you need to do what ever fits your style to get the results you are after.

I just thought about the hollow back and that would require a bit of flating or tapping out as you changed the bevel to maintain so it could be a lengthly process to regrind the whole bevel but that's what I would do.

I have a horizonal water wheel I use to change the the bevel to any degree and then finish sharping by hand.

Charlie

[Terry Beadle]

My 2c's.. I've purchased several mid or low priced japanese chisels. I'm talkin' the $40 ones. Only one of these gave me a problem with a chip out and that was after the very first sharpening. It looked to me like a flaw in the metal but after that has never given me any problems. These chisels are all set to 25 primary with micro bevels at 30~35. I do have one Japanese chisel set up to 22 degree primary with a 25~28 degree micro bevel. I am using this chisel for paring only and so far it has done an outstanding job.

I purchased one 'sword steel' high priced 1/2 inch chisel from Misugi Designs. This chisel is a paring chisel with a primary of 25. No micro bevel. Cost about $150. I must have been drunk but later I was just in love. This chisel is flawless and cuts like a dream. Everything as advertised.

I also use those Checz $5 cheapies and surprisingly they do a very good job. Better than the blue handled Marples but only for paring and lighter thin stock dovetail work.

I don't belive Japanese is the only way to go but I would say that out of 6 chisels, I've only had one instance of a less than 1/128th chip. So if you buy a Japanese chisel get the best you can afford unless you just have to have Two Cherries or LN etc. Luckily when you get up about $50 ~ 75 per chisel, the steel is just surpurb so it's hard to go wrong.

I guess I've exceeded 2 cents... whoops!