30mm vs 40mm bore size for new shaper

[Joe Calhoon]

Jason, the side mount table does not take up any more room but as Albert mentioned if doing angle cuts you may have to pull it out from the wall for clearance.

[Joe Calhoon]

Albert, your shop is looking good! The L’Invincible line is available here but not well represented by SCM for info on them. I remember touring the SCM booth at the Milan show and they had the whole line up set up and making furniture, doors etc with knowledgeable techs to answer questions. I had some of the early L’Invincible machines back in the 70s and 80s.
question, with the long pull out bar on the front how does the sliding table clear that? I have seen some SCM side mount shapers with a pull out bar that retracted so the side table would clear. Maybe I am just missing this in your picture. That is a good idea if yours is equipped like that. Martin shortens the bar in this case with the idea that you use the sliding table for support in the lower position. At the Italian show they had a shaper equipped with a bead saw. Most mfgs don’t offer that option anymore.

[Warren Lake]

whats a bead saw?

[David Kumm]

I may have missed the discussion about power but if you are buying these types of machines you need to upgrade your power supply. 100 amps at 240v will make 15 hp machines a challenge when you couple them with at least a 5 hp dust collector and air compressor. A shaper with that capacity is better off with a 7.5 hp DC. If the spindles change fairly easily, get a 1.25" and 30MM and buy the 40mm bushings from Bobby at Woodworkers tool works. You won't use 40mm enough to need the spindle.

Sounds like this is your dream shop so if you drop 250K for machines and tooling, you want at least 200 amps and a 20 or 30 hp phase perfect. It won't be long before you want a Wide Belt sander and they take amps to run. Dave

[Albert Lee]

Would you still do the side mounted sliding table if you were just doing this as a hobby (one-off projects)? My limitation, like yours, is space, but it doesn't look like the sliding table on the Martin or the SCM takes up any more space than the side extension table when it isn't in use.

yes, I will still do it, the side sliding table enables you to carry out tenon operation on a very long piece of timber, say 10ft+ long. here is a photo of it when folded away. you still need some room to "house" the table and extensions.

fold.jpg

The transition between tenon mode and profile mode is very fast. here is a 8 minute Youtube clip of me going through the function of the spindle moulder, I have seen Martin's spindle moulder video, they look similar in operation in terms of changing between different modes.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00aPTETMYQ" target="_blank">

[Albert Lee]

Albert, your shop is looking good! The L’Invincible line is available here but not well represented by SCM for info on them. I remember touring the SCM booth at the Milan show and they had the whole line up set up and making furniture, doors etc with knowledgeable techs to answer questions. I had some of the early L’Invincible machines back in the 70s and 80s.
question, with the long pull out bar on the front how does the sliding table clear that? I have seen some SCM side mount shapers with a pull out bar that retracted so the side table would clear. Maybe I am just missing this in your picture. That is a good idea if yours is equipped like that. Martin shortens the bar in this case with the idea that you use the sliding table for support in the lower position. At the Italian show they had a shaper equipped with a bead saw. Most mfgs don’t offer that option anymore.

Thanks Joe! online information of the SCM L'Invincibile range is ridiculous. it almost felt like they dont care if you buy it. my SCM agent said to me its like you wouldnt buy a Lamborghini because you found a pamphlet on the internet... people buy it cos people know what they are buying.

now, about the pull out bar, there is a quick release clamp so you can undo it, slide the bar to either left or right. you can slide it to the far right so it clears the tenon table or you can slide it to the left if you need it, and then once in position you lock it in place. I dont like the shortened version of the Martin cos if I have a large panel I need the full length to support the panel - and I recently have been processing large panels and this pull our bar is really handy. its locked at the centre of the table in my video because I dont have the space to slide it right or left lol

You can order the bead unit with SCM spindle moulder. think its only available on the L'Invincible range.
There are many accessories you can have with SCM, even a small front sliding table that fits on the table top.

[Joe Calhoon]

whats a bead saw?

Warren,
It’s a saw that drops in on the shaper or window machine to cut a glass bead out. Saves a little material and time to make the bead for doors and windows. On shapers the saw slides back out of the way when not in use. Here are a couple pictures from the Milan show of them setting it and using it. This has actually been some time ago.
6EBE0DB8-B922-40C9-BD12-0B5312C9916B.jpg
A0F941DC-DCF3-4870-8D44-3A73E344E1B5.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe! online information of the SCM L'Invincibile range is ridiculous. it almost felt like they dont care if you buy it. my SCM agent said to me its like you wouldnt buy a Lamborghini because you found a pamphlet on the internet... people buy it cos people know what they are buying.

now, about the pull out bar, there is a quick release clamp so you can undo it, slide the bar to either left or right. you can slide it to the far right so it clears the tenon table or you can slide it to the left if you need it, and then once in position you lock it in place. I dont like the shortened version of the Martin cos if I have a large panel I need the full length to support the panel - and I recently have been processing large panels and this pull our bar is really handy. its locked at the centre of the table in my video because I dont have the space to slide it right or left lol

You can order the bead unit with SCM spindle moulder. think its only available on the L'Invincible range.
There are many accessories you can have with SCM, even a small front sliding table that fits on the table top.

Albert, at the shows here SCM will put out some of the L’Invincable machines but the sales people usually don’t know much especially on the shapers. The video you did is great, more informative than anything online. I remember now about the bar- slides not folds. That is a good design feature. I like the way the sliding table top folds down. Fence swing out support is similar to Martin. I have used the SCM feed arm but like Martin’s better. SCMs is fine though. Probably could go through these shapers and make lots of comparisons with one better than the other in certain areas. Both top machines though along with Hofmann.

[Bill Dufour]

30mm can be bushed up to take a 40mm cutter not the other way round. My table saw came with a 1+1/8 arbor hard to find blade that size today so I made a new one inch arbor. I can still use the blades that came with it with a spacer.
Bill D.

[Jason McCray]

For God’s sake, stop trying to talk this guy out of buying the machines. I just want to see the photos upon delivery.

25x30 is super lame for those machines to live in. I have a 20” jointer, 20” planer, Oliver 232, and a much smaller Felder than your future t75. I’m tripping machinery and project parts any time I work in my 650-700sqfr space. I would desperately find a means of expanding that footprint.

I just want to know what he plans to do with them. If it's a trophy shop just because he can, nothing wrong with that. If he wants a full kit of Martins plus two big bandsaws he'll probably want a bigger shop. If he can't decide between the panel saw and shaper vs two bandsaws and a tracksaw it rouses my curiosity.

For what it's worth, I have a 720 sq. ft. machine room with a 2.5 m. slider, 16" jointer and planer, 36" bandsaw, medium duty shaper, chopsaw, edge sander, slot mortiser, lathe, spindle sander, plywood rack, wood stove and enough room to maneuver materials and finished work. What it lacks is assembly and finishing space which happens elsewhere. I'm sure Jason can fit his projected machines into the space available. More room would be a plus for sure, if possible.

Here are two of the layouts I've been playing with. The first I've been toying with for the longest. With the slider on the left I can utilize the open door for longer cuts, or move the slider up and out of the way to bring things in through the door. I don't like the planer up against the wall with the jointer right next to it - a long walk around the jointer to get to the planer outfeed. And the shaper isn't utilizing the overhead door for its sliding table.

The second one with the slider to the right is new. I've always liked the idea of the right side of the slider being right up against a wall. The outrigger and slider can move all the way up or down to make room in the center for other work or jointer/planer feeding, with about 10' from the edge of the planer to the edge of the slider. The shaper can be positioned so that the sliding table can be used with larger pieces angled back and out the overhead door. The jointer and planer have 360 degree access and as positioned the jointer can handle nearly 10' boards without opening the overhead door - they could probably move even closer to the door.

Obviously a lot not pictured here but I'm focusing on the big 5 right now, with a wary eye looking towards dust collection.
layout 1.jpglayout 2.jpg

[Kevin Jenness]

Have you considered swapping the jointer and planer so that the planer is on the left as you step up to the jointer? You can offload the jointed stock onto a cart or horses to the right of the outfeed table. In your first picture the jointer could be close to the back wall. In the second plan you could move both machines toward the bandsaw and possibly run longer material past the end of the slider while leaving room for long rips on the bandsaw behind the jointer.

You might also think about positioning the machines off the main shop axes for better feed paths. in some cases table heights can be adjusted so one machine feeds over another in a tight space. You may find it helpful to draw material paths associated with various machines on a separate layer.

[Albert Lee]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

[Jason McCray]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

I think at minimum air compressor and dust collector will need to go in a lean to. I actually have a lot of room behind the building to expand. Doubling the space or even more should be possible. I'm going to look in to that before moving forward with any equipment purchases.

What size is your finishing room?

[Patrick Kane]

my space is only 9 m x 6m. yet I managed to squeeze in a lot of machines than what you planned... including a 1100mm wide belt sander

I am sure you will be fine. be mindful where you going to put your dust extractor and I am presuming you will be putting the compressor in another shed? 9m x 7m is ok for machine timber but it wont be enough if you are doing assembly, finishing and the worst of all - stuff you completed and yet to be delivered. I assemble on the driveway (fun when it starts to rain) and have another space for finishing/spray paint. I probably need 4 times the space of what I have now.

Your shop is a great example of what can fit in a space. I also have a fair amount of tools and wood in a smaller space, probably smaller than yours. My earlier point was, the second you start using machines and a project is at that 25-75% point of completion, a tight shop will become uncomfortable to work in. Maybe it is because i work on larger projects, but just a week ago i had a finished 42" by 68" island on sawhorses waiting to be picked up as i was finishing up my new home office desk and monitor stand. It was to the point where i was tip-toeing around project parts and trying not to bump into anything that was finished or fully sanded.

Most times, people layout their shops and the machines fit. Layout your shop and then put a cart next to each machine for project part staging and see how things layout then. Albert appears to be blessed with a mild climate, and his driveway doubles his 'shop' space when necessary. For me, that would mean im getting rained on half the time, or its 30°. Something to keep in mind if the OP is also in a very mild climate. Here in Pennsylvania, the summers are hotter and much more humid than i like to woodwork in, my springs are wet, and so really i would have enjoyable open air workspace in May, September, October, November, and maybe December.

[Albert Lee]

I think at minimum air compressor and dust collector will need to go in a lean to. I actually have a lot of room behind the building to expand. Doubling the space or even more should be possible. I'm going to look in to that before moving forward with any equipment purchases.

What size is your finishing room?

you are fortunate to have those space to expand...

The following list is what I have other than my main machine room.
4m x 3m x2.4m for finishing/spray
4m x 2m x 2m for timber storage
2m x 1m x 2m for compressor.

I am actively looking at building another shed for clamping/handwork. very tired of running around to get the tarps when it start to rain and I have the work pieces on the driveway. ...