How do you plane dovetails flush when the face grain goes the wrong direction?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

super sharp, lower angle block plane against the grain should help take care of most of the proud waste end grain without impacting the long grain surface too much. Once you get it close, a little beveled planed on the corner of the box will minimize the vast majority of potential blowout. You got it!

Wait what? Low angle against the grain? either I don't understand what you mean, or it goes against everything I know about working with planes and wood grain. low angle blade against the graine is the best way to lift out the grain and create tearout.

wouldn't it be better to work with a high angle? I have an LN no.4, I converted to 55 degrees for this kind of thing - it is a vast improvement but not a foolproof fix

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

In addition to the above, pare with a chisel plane if you have one. Less chance of an oopsie than with a chisel.

I second this

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I made a jig I found helpful for setting up the cap iron - not my idea, I think C.S. mentioned it. I set a few feeler gauges on a piece of ply, I usually set the endcap around 0.007". If I have tearout I want to handle I'll go down one or two steps on the jig.
not really great for heavily cambered blades, but then again you can't really use a heavy camber with a close cap iron. I just pay close attention not to press my nice sharp blade against the steel feelers and it works pretty good.

WhatsApp Image 2021-12-15 at 13.23.44.jpg

its especially good for someone trying to learn about what setting works when (such as myself).

[Tom Trees]

Wow, that cap iron is set much closer than I presumed you were talking about.

This does increase the pressure required to push the plane, correct? (nothing wrong with that if it works, just trying to identify some feedback parameters to know what whether or not I've got it close enough, or too close, by your definition)

Unfortunately, I can't see the other attachments. I get this error: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Hello again
Rafael has answered your question better than I could.
Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

Going back to the basics, which isn't what anyone asked for...
Not that I totally agree with planing methodology of said Cosman video, just watched it again last night, I think the older video may have been a bit better,
but it's close enough to methods I use which will provide a fool proof method of getting to the point of full length shavings.
(I think the older publication was completely by hand)
I would have mainly started nips from the high corners, with diagonal strokes on that board after that, no scrub needed IMO.

Charlesworth's video where he was presenting and had the bottle of coke and his 5 1/2 plane was worth watching too.
He doesn't have that much content on youtube, but is worth going over all of the wee snippets also.
That might take care of finishing off Rob's video for someone.

And then plane setup, which is different from planing methodology, just mentioning that as I plane as above with the timber sitting freely on the bench.
I see some issues with doing things otherwise.

Regarding distances or honed cap angles, Derek Cohen's photos are free for someone to see.
David's videos are there, Brian Holcombe's, Dusty splinters, Hernan Costa, and a few others that I can't remember.
This is to see how heavy a cut can be taken with various timbers ect

Most of the top gurus are not showing this, even when heckled!
You can see the influenced shavings i.e straight shavings, it's easy to see whether someone is using the cap iron or not.

Tom

[steven c newman]

Hmmmm..
Box #2, leveled the front.JPG
Works for me...

[Jim Koepke]

Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

There is a very simple fix for this, become a contributor. Six bucks a year is a wise investment.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

I know this is a zombie thread but it got me thinking. I if in that spot would use a sharp chisel to pare the proud ends. I would then try a very skewed plane swipe to attempt to get around the grain with a deadly sharp blade. Lastly I am getting to where I am getting this right because I have forgot to check to many times in the past, check for grain direction when selecting parts orientation prior to the dovetail process. Sash, plough and rabbit planes are a great educator on checking grain direction. If you watch Paul Sellers he always gives a very detailed look at the grain pattern and still gets it wrong at times.

[Christopher Wellington]

Scott - the trouble with selecting grain direction before starting the dovetail process is that a typical box will have dovetails on both ends of each face. You'll have the problem I described in the OP regardless of how you orient your parts.

[mike stenson]

Yep, think about it as something like this.. if you're visual (like I am)

[Rafael Herrera]

You come in and plane the surface with the dovetail at the start of the cut but you find that you're planing against the grain on the face. Normally you would flip the piece around and plane the other direction, but now the joint is at the end of the cut and you're liable to blow out the corner where you're planing end grain.

How do you deal with this situation?

With the cap iron set really close to the edge and taking fine shavings with a smoother, it should be safe to plane against the grain. Even if your pins are 1/16" proud, and the endgrains will be left glistening.

If the pins are really sticking, pare them with a chisel or use a flush cutting saw, but leave the final cutting to the plane.

[Luke Dupont]

Hello again
Rafael has answered your question better than I could.
Sorry I can't tell which photos are showing, as they all show up when posting, but I can't see them once I've put them up as I'm not a contributor, nor have I got
a external photo app like photobucket to show them either.
Must get a bit more techy and fix this issue sometime.

Going back to the basics, which isn't what anyone asked for...
Not that I totally agree with planing methodology of said Cosman video, just watched it again last night, I think the older video may have been a bit better,
but it's close enough to methods I use which will provide a fool proof method of getting to the point of full length shavings.
(I think the older publication was completely by hand)
I would have mainly started nips from the high corners, with diagonal strokes on that board after that, no scrub needed IMO.

Charlesworth's video where he was presenting and had the bottle of coke and his 5 1/2 plane was worth watching too.
He doesn't have that much content on youtube, but is worth going over all of the wee snippets also.
That might take care of finishing off Rob's video for someone.

And then plane setup, which is different from planing methodology, just mentioning that as I plane as above with the timber sitting freely on the bench.
I see some issues with doing things otherwise.

Regarding distances or honed cap angles, Derek Cohen's photos are free for someone to see.
David's videos are there, Brian Holcombe's, Dusty splinters, Hernan Costa, and a few others that I can't remember.
This is to see how heavy a cut can be taken with various timbers ect

Most of the top gurus are not showing this, even when heckled!
You can see the influenced shavings i.e straight shavings, it's easy to see whether someone is using the cap iron or not.

Tom

Thanks. I just did some test planing against the grain with the iron set up to the chip breaker like you had, and I did get noticeably better results.
In a past discussion years ago, I remember there was a general discussion about the optimal position for the chip breaker being something like 1.5~2mm from the cutting edge. And that setting appears to work okay for thicker cuts as well as thinner.
But you seem to be absolutely correct in that with really thin cuts, you can get the cap iron much closer.

I had played with all of this many years ago, but it seems like I've forgotten some things and have more to learn still. I'll keep playing with this and see what I can do on some really gnarly grained boards!

[Anuj Prateek]

I use a block plane and LAJ. I start from one end and go till middle and then I start from other end. Doesn't take long to get it level.

On occasion I have also used a router with flush trim bit.