Hand Saws: advice for a novice

[Dan Gaylin]

My hand saw “arsenal” consists of very little: a basic coping saw, a basic hacksaw, a cheap flush cut saw, a bow saw, and an Irwin typical carpenters saw. I use all of them except the last one, which just sucks too much to be of much use. I am interested in buying a couple of saws for general purpose work in the shop.

This is not about becoming an expert at dovetail joinery (maybe some day), it’s just to have some decent tools when I don’t want to get out an electric saw (of which I have all the usual suspects) or it is impractical to use one.

I am confused by all of the options. Starting with the question of Japanese style saws versus traditional western saws and then all of the different types of saws. I am thinking that having one that is better for ripping and one that is better for cross-cutting makes sense. I am leaning towards Lee Valley/Veritas because I love the company and their tools. I don’t mind paying for quality but I do not want to go crazy here since I am still mostly a power tool guy.

Would appreciate your advice. Apologies if this has been asked before. I searched the threads and was still confused.

Thanks,

-dan

[Cory Newman]

I think ideally you would want a cross cut hand saw, a rip handsaw, a cross cut carcass or back saw, a rip carcass or back saw, and then a dovetail saw

I have duplicates of some of those in different tpi and different versions of dovetail saws depending on what I am doing.

[chuck van dyck]

I'd consider a Gyokucho ryoba.
If you're looking to fall in love with a tool and particular process, there are so many cool options out there. But for something that works well, and is super easy to use, a ryoba is hard to beat. The one currently on the classifieds forum would be perfect. Gramercy tool works makes a pretty sweet "hardware store" saw if you wanna spend some dough.
Keep you eyes peeled at estate sales and flea markets. I have a pretty solid collection of Distons and such in rip and cross cut patterns, having paid no more than $5 for any of them. They're super easy to sharpen once you give it a shot and have the right file.
But a ryoba just works well.
If you're looking for a dovetail saw or tenon saw, the veritas ones are hard to beat for getting into the game.

[john jesseph]

Unpopular opinion: Two saws. Stanley Sharptooth plastic handle toolbox saw. Zeta or Gyokucho fine dovetail saw. Boom, done, get back to work.

(I probably have 30 saws. I use about 6 of them. The rest are mental clutter I need to purge.)

[Jim Koepke]

I am confused by all of the options. Starting with the question of Japanese style saws versus traditional western saws and then all of the different types of saws. I am thinking that having one that is better for ripping and one that is better for cross-cutting makes sense. I am leaning towards Lee Valley/Veritas because I love the company and their tools. I don’t mind paying for quality but I do not want to go crazy here since I am still mostly a power tool guy.

Hi Dan, the "confusion of the options" comes from saws being more specialized than just about any other woodworking tool.

Looking at the Lee Valley site indicates they do not make what one would call a "standard hand saw" (or carpenters type saw). They have a few by PAX. The rip saws are listed as having 4.5 tpi (teeth per inch). This is a bit aggressive for someone who doesn't regularly use handsaws.

My favorite, most used, rip saw is 6 ppi (points per inch, this works out to 5 tpi). Yes, even the two ways of measuring the tooth count is confusing.

Ripping Ash.jpg

This is me ripping an eight foot piece of ash. It took about 15 minutes including a short rest. The saw was good at following the unseen, snapped chalk line.

My suggestion is if you want two standard type handsaws would be to contact Pete Taran > http://www.vintagesaws.com

The Japanese style saws are great saws for some folks. Others, like me, have difficulty getting them to work a straight line consistently.

The other option would be to pick up some saws at estate sales and learn to sharpen your own. Pete's site also has a sharpening tutorial.

After the "standard handsaws" most saws are made for joinery or other special purposes.

jtk

[Bruce Mack]

Unpopular opinion: Two saws. Stanley Sharptooth plastic handle toolbox saw. Zeta or Gyokucho fine dovetail saw. Boom, done, get back to work.

(I probably have 30 saws. I use about 6 of them. The rest are mental clutter I need to purge.)

I agree with you. My Stanley Sharptooth 26" 12 ppi saw crosscuts almost twice as fast as my custom resharpened Disstons and the quality of the cut surface is not noticeably inferior. I've not tried ripping with it but suspect the tooth grind is not conducive to this. I think the Gyokucho brand whether ryoba or duzuki is better than any other Japanese pull saw. Japanese pull saws are best in cuts of thin, say less than 3/4", hardwood but can be used with dimensional softwood lumber of the 2 x variety. The blades are thinner than Western style push saws and those filed for crosscuts may have twice as many teeth. Here's a reference: https://giantcypress.net/post/141424...anese-saw-2016

[andy bessette]

Here is my basic tool kit for working on yachts. The Japanese saw in the lower left of the photo is what you want for virtually all of your crosscut needs. Quickly disassembles to fit in your tool bag. Inexpensive. Replaceable blade.

[Scott Clausen]

Just today I decided it was time to address a miter saw that would bind badly in my vintage miter box. I set the teeth, jointed them and filed them sharp. Problem solved! I plan on going through my stash of saws and rehabbing all of them. I would go the vintage route and buy a well tuned saw(s) that is already sharp or bite the bullet and learn how to file. Get a aggressive rip, fine rip, crosscut, tenon and dovetail saw...to start. Hand Saws can be a lot of fun, I find the exercise and lack of dust/noise incredible for my well being.

[Joe Bailey]

I'll admit that it wasn't my first thought, but since it's been brought up, I too, think you're an excellent candidate for a Japanese Ryoba saw.

You've made it clear that you're primarily a power tool guy, and that you're not looking for a dedicated dovetail saw.

As the owner of literally hundreds of antique and vintage western handsaws, I can tell you that apart from restoring a used (possibly neglected) saw, you also probably need to learn to sharpen one.
The japanese saw's induction hardened blade, on the other hand, is replaceable.

As far as the difficulty in getting a straight cut goes -- well I know plenty of "woodworkers" who still can't make a straight and plumb cut with a western style push saw.

Lastly, the beauty of the Ryoba is that it is sharpened rip along one edge and crosscut along the other.

My recommendation: the Gyokucho 240mm Ryoba

[Tony Wilkins]

When I started out, I was sure a ryoba would be the answer to the challenges I face physically to doing hand sawing (I’m disabled). It worked nicely but when I tried a western back saw, it just worked for me. I believe that either one will work and well but I also think that people tend towards one or the other. My recommendation, try one of each before you buy if possible.

[Curt Putnam]

Last year I deliberately bought a Stanley induction hardened tooth saw from Home Depot because of the experience I had with a pair of toolbox saws. They cut surprisingly fast and well. I would suggest starting with one of these with a higher tooth count. If that solves your problem you are done, If not, then get a ryoba and see how that works for you.

With either type of saw, it is truly worthwhile to watch some videos of proper stance, grip and arm motion. Doing these correctly makes sawing a breeze while doing them even a little incorrectly makes sawing a frustrating disaster.

YMWV

[Scott Winners]

I have a few of the home store plastic handled induction hardened teeth saws in various lengths and tooth counts. Some of them have teeth that are horribly set, some are moderately bad, and a few are adequate.

I think the easiest upgrade for the OP would be to go to a couple home stores and buy a new one - the one or two with the most consistently set teeth. At the price point, I would be happy to break off one or two “outlier teeth” if the rest were set consistently.

For general utility crosscutting my go to is an 8 point crosscut with a middle of the road tooth shape, all of Leonard Lee, Paul Sellers and Pete Tarran come in within a degree or two from each other n rake and fleam and so on for general utility use.

Got calipers?

[steven c newman]

Stance ( Western saw) as comfortable as you can.

Line the saw up: A straight line should run from the tip of the saw all the way back up to your shoulder..

Grip? No need for a tight "Death Grip" ( cramps the hands, anyway..) Use the index finger like a pointer, the rest should be just tight enough to maintain control. You have to let the saw do the work, not you.

A swipe down the tooth line, but not on the teeth, helps keep the saw moving.

Old saying: Ya bought a 26" saw, you use the 26" length. Nice, easy, full strokes. Short, choppy strokes wear you out, and dull the saw in a small section more than the rest of the saw.

When done sawing for the day, give the saw a good wipe down, with a rag that has a few drops of oil in it. So, the next time that saw comes out of the til...it won't be covered in rust....

The saws I am using? D8 Rip saw, D-100 (26" long) crosscut, a 10 toothed D8 (20" long) cross cut panel saw.....a few back saws...and a couple Mitre Box saws...
A Cedar Box, cross cut saw.JPG
Like the Stanley #358.

OP might also look into getting a coping saw? Does NOT need to be "Top of the Line"......I use a Disston/HK Porter No. 10......just get the best blades you can for it....and set it up to cut on the pull stroke.

[Luke Dupont]

It depends what you want out of your saw. I've used both Japanese and Western saws, but I have the most experience with Japanese saws.

For ripping long boards, I highly recommend a quality, vintage western rip panel saw fully restored and of a good make by Disston or something. Japanese saws can rip too of course, but the orientation of the teeth mean that you have to either rip with the piece 90 degrees up in the vise, or from underneath the board with the tip leading above the piece, and the handle trailing underneath, meaning you're advancing blind and in an awkward stance. If you rip in the standard manner, kneeling over the work and pulling back at 45 degrees, the teeth catch up underneath the fibers and are pulling against the grain, causing really bad vibrations, pulling the work up off the saw horse or bench, and generally making the cut inefficient. If you reverse that, and use a western push saw, all of the sudden you're cutting with the grain instead of against it, and everything goes much more smoothly.

I think that is an important point to make. I love Japanese saws and am actually more skilled at using them than Western saws, but for long rips, I much prefer a western panel saw, with a rip tooth, of course.

A nice tenon / dovetail saw is nice for all kinds of work, and this is the other Western saw that I've used the most. I love that, again, they allow me to rip with the grain (granted, usually for shorter rips), and work well with Western work holding devices such as bench-hooks.
When I am using western saws, which is about 50% of the time, I almost always reach for a small tenon saw, or large dovetail saw (different people would refer to the saw I use as either, and the distinction gets blurry... but I refer to something around the size that you always see people like Paul Sellers using.)

You can however do everything with just a Ryoba and Douzuki -- the Ryouba being a combination rip/crosscut panel saw, and the Douzuki being the Japanese equivelant of a dovetail saw.

Some people prefer two separate kataba in rip and crosscut over a ryoba. Ryoba can be annoying if you want to resharpen it yourself, or if one set of the teeth become worn before the other, because the set must be perfectly even on both the front and back edges, or else the saw will bind in the deep cuts. I learned this the hard way trying to sharpen and set my Ryoba. I usually do not shy away from skills which are difficult to learn, but the precision required to sharpen a Ryoba well should not be underestimated... Better to just go with a kaeba saw and use replacement blades, or stick with a Kataba, if you want to resharpen.

If you're on a budget and want really good saws, Japanese saws are the way to go. Good Western saws, either new or vintage, are very expensive, and modern makes (with the exception of high end makers, of course) are no good at all. So, spend the money on a good saw, if you go the Western route.

For western saws, you can just start with a rip panel saw, and a rip tenon or dovetail saw -- something about 10-12" in length and with a bit of depth so you can cut both dovetails and tenons... maybe 12-16 PPI/TPI. I do not recommend getting a crosscut saw or sash saw straight away. Crosscut saws don't work well for ripping at all, whereas rip saws will rip and crosscut, and Historically, crosscut saws didn't really come about until fairly recently, with all saws being rip saws until then.

If you do want a good crosscut saw, again, the Ryoba or other Japanese saws are excellent. I especially find the Ryoba easy to use to make square cuts, because it's so wide which helps keep it square and straight in the cut.

The technique for using a Japanese saw versus a western saw is quite different, though... You may find yourself struggling with one if you use primarily the other. Western saws are more tolerant of downwards pressure, whereas Japanese saws should be handled very delicately and held far back on the handle, at the very end, allowing the saw to do as much of the work as possible. You also start and end the cut on opposite ends. It's something you just have to get used to.

[James Pallas]

If you can find someone who has saws you can try. You may be able to go to a woodworkers tool store and try different saws. I don’t know of 1 or 2 saws that do everything. The closest I guess would be a Ryoba but even they are drastically different by size, at least to me.
Jim