Kitchen Cabinets

[Paul J Kelly]

Just to pile on,

I too like the prefinished plywood for the carcasses and I do 3/4" for the lowers and 5/8" for the uppers. I do far more drawers for the lowers than doors. so I only use pre finished on the lower cabinets with doors. Before the pandemic, you could easily find pre-finished Baltic Birch. Pleasure for cabinet builds.

I too like face frames for durability (you can make them narrow to increase door and drawer interior space). Low angle pocket screws are amazing for these - Castle TSM-12 vs. Kreg. I gave my Kreg stuff away.

Beech (steamed) is a relatively cheap ($3-$4/bf) hardwood that machines great and takes paint almost as good as MDF does. For paint grade, it is my go to - very durable and easy to work with.

On the cabinet structure - the 'plinth' or kickplates are usually just wasted space. Make them a bit taller -4" or 5" and put in a drawer in that space instead for the rarely used stuff. Cookie sheets, holiday stuff, party favors, big charcuterie boards. There are a few videos on YouTube that are really creative!

PK
PKwoodworking

[Jared Sankovich]

I'm surprised as many here suggest 3/4 backs for strength. Most of the commercial offerings are 3/8 particle board and hot glue.

[Paul J Kelly]

FWIW,

I do not do 3/4" backs.

I install 4" stretchers (same thickness and material as the carcass - usually 3/4") at the top an bottom of the back opening to keep the cabinet square and then add a thinner back if it is a door cabinet. For drawer cabinets I use no back, just the before mentioned stretchers.

Under compression 3/4" plywood will take a massive amount of weight. Tie multiple cabinet banks together and you have an immovable object.

For upper cabinets, I do 1/4 prefinished plywood for the backs. I do not mount the cabinets via the back. I make integral hardwood stretchers in the back of the uppers to mount them to studs. I do rabbet in the backs of the upper cabinets to keep them flush to the wall. Again, how you construct the carcass should not rely on the back for strength. The back keeps it square and looking nice inside. When you suspend a cabinet in the air, why add more weight? It becomes a liability.

That is my humble opinion - with lots of cabinets behind me.

PK
PKwoodworking

[Phil Gaudio]

I've posted this a number of times in the past. I built a prototype of the cabinets I was planning on building: experimented with all the various joinery and hardware. The prototype became my router table. The second photo shows one a a number of "modules" all built somewhat identically to improve the efficiency of the project. Apologies for the picture quality: had to scan 22 year old photos.
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[Rob Sack]

Me too, and I think melamine can be a great material if used properly. While a scoring saw or point to point machine will excel at processing it, melamine can be cut on a good ol contractors saw with very good results if you have the right blade. I use a Freud TCG for melamine and a Forrest DuraLine with very good results. CMT and Amana also make melamine blades that should be on par with these too. Having a sharp blade for whatever you're cutting is just standard practice. A dull(ing) blade will produce crappy cuts on your plywood too. So will a blade not designed for cutting ply. Plywood will also swell if exposed to prolonged moisture. You could spec waterproof melamine if you wish. And while good quality melamine is heavier than an equivalent sized ply panel - it's not as if its a deal breaker because both really require two men or mechanical handling.

A tray like this will alleviate most moisture issues whether you use plywood or melamine for your carcass:
https://www.mockett.com/kitchen-bath...undersink.html



Strictly not true. If your experience is bad - you're using the wrong fasteners , glue and technique. UV coated plywood doesn't exactly present a tenacious surface for wood glue bonding.



Nothing wrong with domestic hardware. But if European hinges and undermount drawer slides are called for, then the European manuf. run circles around the domestic makes. The only issue now is that soft close runners and hinges are on allocation from the big Euro manuf. and can be difficult to procure in quantity in a timely fashion.

Well, I guess I hit a nerve. So, let me be more specific. Melamine is harder to cut cleanly on both sides. I just assumed we were all on the same page about using blades appropriate for the specific material. Whatever blade you are using, it will last longer cutting plywood than cutting particle board with its higher resin content. And yes, plywood swells when exposed to moisture, as does solid wood. It's just that regular particle board swells more. As I said, a small leak produced pronounced swelling in a particle board sink base I build as per the client's insistence on melamine. The formally 3/4" white melamine panel had swelled to 1 1/8" thick (+50%). Would a tray have helped? Absolutely, which is why I always recommend them for my clients and why I use them myself.

As far as glue and fastener holding power, I have not used "the wrong fasteners, glue and technique" and I do not glue to UV coatings. But I stand by my opinion that a glued and/or screwed rabbeted or dadoed joint, using the appropriate glue and/or fasteners, will be stronger with plywood than with particle board.

As far as "American made hardware", I should have been more specific. I only use Blum or Grass hinges, plates, and undermount slides. While these companies originated in Europe and have manufacturing facilities there, they also have manufacturing facilities here in the US. And yes, supply chain issues are currently a major issue with these products.

[Kevin Jenness]

Lots of ways to build boxes. I have settled on prefinished veneer core plywood from Columbia or Garnica, 3/4" for decks, standards and stretchers, joined with biscuits and/or screws, 1/2" screwed on for backs. I don't like adding hanging rails, and 1/2" is stout enough for fastening yet reasonably lightweight. Ordering is simplified and waste lessened if one uses 3/4" throughout at the cost of increased weight. Melamine is ok for people with strong backs.



For what it's worth:

Grass America produces more than 40 percent of its total hardware sold and distributed throughout the United States. Distribution partners and salespeople are positioned nationwide. Today Grass America is owned by the Würth Group, an international organization based in Germany. See http://www.grassusa.com.

Blum’s premium concealed drawer runner, TANDEM plus BLUMOTION, is manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. STANDARD and METABOX 320M are also made in the U.S.A.

Hinge systems are assembled in the U.S. with the majority of components (steel and zinc) manufactured in our Austrian plants. Most plastic components are injection molded in the U.S. facilities.

[Rob Sack]

One suggestion I left out of my original post is the use of plastic leg levelers instead of a conventional toe base. Hafele has a variety of levelers in a wide range of lengths from about 2 1/2 inches to over 6 inches. We no longer make conventional toebases for the most part. The weight rating of these feet are quite high, they are easy to install, and they come with clips to snap on the toebase fronts. The two biggest advantages for me is that they are very easy to adjust and dial in exactly for leveling the cabinets without having to use shims. Also, being made of plastic and impervious to water, in the off chance there is a leak in the kitchen, bathroom, or laundry room, the toebase fronts can be easily and quickly removed to facilitate drying out any water under the cabinets, greatly reducing the chance for mold as with conventional permanent toebases. Although a bit pricey, Hafele makes an optional adjusting tool that will reach the back levelers from in front of the cabinet, although all the levelers are easily adjustable by hand. An additional, but unanticipated advantage happened about 20 years ago when we first started using them. The contractor forgot to run a water line for the refrigerator ice maker in a brand new kitchen. Had we used conventional toebases, the only option would have been to delay the cabinet install while a 1 ft. by 20+ ft. section of new drywall was remove and later patched after the new line was run. Because we had used the levelers, the space under the cabinets was completely accessible and a small hole was drilled at the back of the sink base bottom and a 1/4" copper line was tapped of the sink shutoff valve and run under the cabinets the 20+ ft. to the refrigerator.

[jack dempsey]

Phil, thanks for all of the information. I had the same thought of building a test cabinet if you will and use it in my shop. They are two great looking cabinets. Thanks for taking the time to respond and post the photos. Jack

[Dave Sabo]

Such as? Are there any kitchen hardware suppliers manufacturing solely or primarily in the US?

Liberty
K&V
Accuride

to name a few.


And curiously enough, the Austrian co. Blum manufactures stuff in N. Carolina.

[John Goodin]

I am in the process of building a paint grade double vanity out of maple. Many drawer slides are on back order so you may want to order those early. As far as painting, I have a Graco X5 airless and have painted several houses of doors and trim and it is simple to get a smooth, professional quality finish. If you use pre-finished ply for the case then you just have to paint the drawers, doors and face frames. The sprayers run about 300 dollars and are small enough to not take up a lot of storage space. I am planning on using the Sherwin Williams Emerald Urethane.

[Jim Becker]

Phil, thanks for all of the information. I had the same thought of building a test cabinet if you will and use it in my shop. They are two great looking cabinets. Thanks for taking the time to respond and post the photos. Jack

Jack, that's a really good idea that can help you work things out before you commit to the kitchen while at the same time making for a prototype that's actually useful. I'll suggest you do both a base and an upper in that respect if you can use both in the shop.

[Kevin Jenness]

Liberty
K&V
Accuride

to name a few.



And curiously enough, the Austrian co. Blum manufactures stuff in N. Carolina.

Again, for what it's worth, nearly all major hardware vendors have manufacturing facilities overseas. I'm all for supporting American manufacturing, but you can't assume that a US domiciled hardware supplier makes any more of its stuff here than Ford or GM, or that a foreign brand doesn't have as much US content as Toyota or Honda.

It's not clear where Liberty Hardware is manufactured, they are headquartered in NC.

Accuride has about 1,000,000 square feet of manufacturing space in China, Germany, Japan, Mexico, the UK, and the US.^[2][5] Its manufacturing plant in Charlotte, North Carolina, United States closed in 2001.<sup>[6]

Knape & Vogt Manufacturing Company is privately held by Chicago-based Wind Point Partners and headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan. “KV” operates two
manufacturing/warehousing facilities in Grand Rapids, two in Taipei, Taiwan, and one in Petaluma, California, with supporting locations in Chicago, Illinois and Ontario, Canada


Grass America produces more than 40 percent of its total hardware sold and distributed throughout the United States. Distribution partners and salespeople are positioned nationwide. Today Grass America is owned by the Würth Group, an international organization based in Germany. See http://www.grassusa.com.

Blum’s premium concealed drawer runner, TANDEM plus BLUMOTION, is manufactured and assembled in the U.S.A. STANDARD and METABOX 320M are also made in the U.S.A.

Hinge systems are assembled in the U.S. with the majority of components (steel and zinc) manufactured in our Austrian plants. Most plastic components are injection molded in the U.S. facilities.</sup>

[Rob Sack]

Perhaps, but more specifically you are just promoting myths, legends, bias, and outright falsehoods regarding some of these. And I don't think SMC should be fueling the " Well, I read on the internet......." generation.
So, let me re-address this first topic. Melamine IS NOT harder to cut cleanly on both sides. If your equipment is tuned and you use the DuraLine or Freud TCG for melamine you can easily get clean cuts top and bottom. It is no harder -or- easier than you getting clean crosscuts on plywood. Get the right blade and you too can have clean cuts in melamine top and bottom. Use the wrong blade and you'll get plenty of tearout in plywood. Neither of which makes one material superior to the other. If you can't get clean cuts both sides in melamine, you're using the wrong blade. Or your saw is out of calibration.

Re: the longevity. Perhaps you're correct, but I doubt it. I don't have real world data to support either side. Even if you're correct - so what. I'm supposed choose my material because it might wear my tooling less ??? Get real. Even a big factory doesn't make sheet good decisions based on this. Tooling costs and sharpening are part of the overhead. Just like the wood, hinges, and labor.



Another red herring and misleading factoid. The melamine you used swelled 50%. Almost . We had a piece of waterproof melamine in a jar of water for years that didn't swell one bit. Should I draw the conclusion that all mealmine is fantastic and waterproof ? Of course not. It's all in the specification. I've seen plywood bottoms de-laminate and swell at the edges under sinks too. Perhaps not 50%? I didn't measure, because at the point it's ruined - nobody really cares whether it failed 6% or 50%. It failed, they want it fixed. And at that point ply IS NOT better than mealmine because it failed less.



Your opinion is certainly vaild. But I challenge you to provide data that supports a dadoed, glued, and screwed joint in ply is stronger than a glued, doweled, and confirmated melamine joint. And even if it is, the latter is still plenty strong enough to support the weight of heavy stone and concrete countertops found in kitchens and baths today. I could design and fabricate an aluminum skeleton cabinet that would be many times stronger than any plywood box design you come up with. So what ? If I advocate we start making such cabinets because they are more better, 10x stronger than ply or melamine framed or frameless - y'all would say I'm delusional. But they'd certainly be stronger. And water proof.



Yes, you should have. Few ,if anyone, would think that Blum and Grass are American made. Hettich and Salice have U.S. are both equal or better in quality and have U.S. operations but don't assemble or manufacture here to my knowledge. Most will equate "American made" hardware with Accuride and K&V. And given the global nature of materials sourcing it's difficult to say which is "more American" Then there would be those that debate whether a Blum tandem or clip-on assembled in the U.S. is inferior to one made entirely in Europe.

So, while saying use "American Made" hardware is a noble gesture, it's simply a feel good comment as stated.

Maybe we have different definitions "clean cut, both sides'. I consider clean cuts in melamine to include absolutely chip free cuts on both sides of the cut, top and bottom. A scoring saw is the best tool for this, but I have gotten chip free cuts on both sides with melamine, but it has required perfectly tuned machinery along with a freshly and correctly sharpened blade specifically designed for melamine. Unfortunately the high resin content of the particle board core will dull the blade faster than cutting plywood, with its much higher ratio of wood to glue.

As far as the swelling issue, a particle board core will swell more than a plywood core, unless as has been claimed, one uses waterproof melamine, which according to your jar test, doesn't swell at all. However, what is the price point and more importantly, the availability of waterproof melamine? I contacted one of the largest wholesale plywood and lumber suppliers in Southern California which I have done business with for decades,, and they don't even stock a "waterproof melamine". Also, what colors, textures, or finishes is it available in?

The notion of American made is more than "a noble gesture". It's not "simply a feel good comment". It's a show of support for American manufacturing. And by the way, unless they have reversed course in the last few years, Accuride moved at least some of their manufacturing to Mexico quite a while ago.

I refuse to use Chinese knock-offs in my shop in place of American made hardware despite the cost savings. My clientele generally does not consider particle board to to be a quality product to be used in high end cabinetry. Neither do I.

[Michael Fink]

Around here painters charge, roughly, by the door/drawer. $150 for each one regardless of size. If hand painting is an option you can typically get it done cheaper.

Also worth noting is that high quality cabinet paint can also be hard to get. I use sherwinn williams emerald urethane and it comes out great but is commonly sold out.

For cabinet paint, figured I'd share my system that's worked well (both for repaints as well as new cabinets/bare wood).

Prime with BIN Shellac (2 coats, sand between coats); this stuff is expensive, ~50-60/gallon
Color coat, EMTECH EM6500 (2 coats, sand between); this stuff is also expensive, ~70/gallon
Top coat, EMTECH EM6000 (2 coats, sanding between); you guessed it, also expensive

I'm working on cabinets with a contractor right now who used SW Urethane; I'll never do that again. Way too soft. He let them dry for a week, tried to install them, chipped all over. And the prep work he did was immaculate, sanded smooth as glass, primed (BIN). It just doesn't have the hardness (or, if it does, it takes weeks to get there). We're in the process of pulling them all back down to repair and then topcoat with EM6000. That's not going to be cheap or easy, I should have insisted he use the process I detailed above, but SW convinced him that their urethane would get hard enough without a top coat. Maybe someday, not but in what I consider a reasonable timeframe to be without the use of cabinets. EM6000 gets hard in a day or two, I'd leave the doors open for a week to be safe (and cabinets empty), but that's probably overkilling it.

I've also had good luck with General Finishes poly as my top coat. Getting GF paint was always a pain though, and they didn't have custom color matching, EMTECH has a full paint system, designed for air spray out of the can, and delivered to my door in a few days. Both were good though, I repainted a huge kitchen with GF as my topcoat and had no chipping or defects the ~3 years we lived in the house.

[jack dempsey]

Thanks to everyone of you for the advice and information. Great community here with folks willing to take the time to share their knowledge and experience. I have a bit of planning and information gathering to do before I make the decision to jump into this project. The saving grace here is that it is a small kitchen. Jack