Mortise or tenon first

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm currently building a saw vise from a plan I found online. I cut the mortises first and right off the chisel they are pretty wonky. So now I need to make the tenons slightly larger than planned, no problem there. Should square up the mortises to perfection or just fit the tenons to what I have. I'm quite sure the last inch of depth is pretty good but my mortise chisel twisted here and there.

Noob. Watched Paul Sellers do it and he makes it look like childs play. Took me an hour and a half to make 2 mortises, 1/2" x 2" x 3" in white oak. One good thing is the plan calls for 5/8" mortises but I don't have a 5/8" chisel.

MortisesOakVise.jpg

[Richard Hutchings]

BTW, I used 2 different methods to cut these. One with the drilled holes and the other just the chisel.

[Rob Luter]

I usually make the mortise first and then the tenon to match. It's easier to get them right by sneaking up on the fit. Tweaking a mortise is tougher, at least for me.

[steven c newman]

I usually go tenon first....trace around the tenon onto the spot for the mortise to go....then just leave the lines.

IF you don't happen to have the exact width of chisel for the mortise.....use a smaller width one....5/8" would use a 5/16" one. Or, since a lot of chisels now are made to Metric widths, maybe use the 6mm one....

And, no, I do not drill out the waste....I just sit down at my bench....and chop away...I don't try to go all the way on one chop....I go in a series of layers....that way, I control how the mortise turns out. I just work my way back and forth, a layer at a time.

Also, you might want to check out for a Lock Mortise Chisel....makes it easier to dig all the chips out, and scrape along the floor of the mortise...they look like someone made a chisel out of a "?" and added a handle where the "dot" was..

[Scott Clausen]

For some unknown reason I bought my first set of chisels in metric format. Anyway I size the marking gauge to the exact with on my chisel to mark the mortice walls and use the shop made cheater guide to help me keep the walls square. I use the same gauge set to mark my tenon but cut (handsaw) outside the lines. I then clean up with a router plane but still stay a bit fat. I then start test fitting to get the tenon with that is perfect. I wish I knew all of this and had all the tools when I attempted my first one. A lot of folks like to use standard chisels but I still like my mortise chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Richard, a few thoughts follow.

If your tenons will show on the exit side you may want to make your mortises as square as practical. For a saw vise it likely won't matter.

The easiest way to make a mortise wider than your chisel is to bore out the waste first then cleaning up with chisels. In my own experience, going at it with a chisel and mallet is faster and easier than drilling and paring.

Tenons first, mortise first, is like pins first or tails first when cutting dovetails, it doesn't really matter. For me it is easier to correct a mis-cut tenon than it is to correct an incorrectly cut mortise.

A 5/8" chisel isn't one of the common sizes. In mortise chisels finding something larger than 1/2" is uncommon. What is more common is finding chisels in larger sizes made for heavier work like framing, wheel wrights or wagon makers.

On one of my projects 24 mortises were cut > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?262272 < A test tenon was used, so in effect one tenon was made before the mortises were cut.

With a bit of experience one's speed at cutting mortises gets better. Having a chisel to match the width saves a lot of time. Developing the rhythm of cutting a mortise also reduces the time it takes.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

Just giving you what I learned but no opinion if it's the best or better way as I haven't use other methods much. I learned to set your mortice gauge to the width of the mortice chisel you will use, and mark both the mortice and tenon with the same gauge setting. Ensuring you always saw to the waste side, then cut the tenon first later chopping out the mortice. But this method probably only works well if you're using a mortice chisel.

The good thing about a M&T joint is that even ugly ones usually hold well because there's so much glue surface. And if the gaps are too big, you can always make it a wedged tenon with the wedges forcing the sids of the tenon into the sides of the mortise.

[Richard Hutchings]

I considered making a "cheater guide" and probably should have. I think some of my problems came from not clamping the board to the bench and not chopping over a leg and wailing away with a heavy steel hammer because I don't have a proper mallet. It's on my list before I do this again. Rob Cosman shows drawing square lines every 1/8" to set the chisel to.

I set mortise gauge to the width of my chisel as best as I could. I don't think it helped and next time I'm going to use one line only as per either Cosman or the English guy, I forget.

Jim, that's an excellent way to practice, I may build a new gate just so I can do it. Your thread didn't show the finished gate, did you finish it?

[Tony Wilkins]

There’s dozens of variations of method for mortice and tenon. The big thing I see is your description of wailing away. The neatest work I’ve seen done is when the craftsman takes small bites. When your only trying to move a sliver of wood out of the way you don’t need much force. Seems to go quicker that way too, though it seems the opposite of what you’d expect.

eta: also, are you positioned so that you can see square in the right direction?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Also, you might want to check out for a Lock Mortise Chisel....makes it easier to dig all the chips out, and scrape along the floor of the mortise...they look like someone made a chisel out of a "?" and added a handle where the "dot" was..

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you mean swan neck chisels? I thought a lock mortise chisel was the thing they use for chopping out a mortise for a lock when the box has already been assembled and you don't have room for a plumb chisel and mallet...

[Eric Rathhaus]

Richard there are quite a few lengthy threads of different methods for MT and chopping mortices on this site. You can pull them up by using the "site:sawmillcreek.org" designation after typing your search words in your browser. I remember many having links to articles and videos. The best article I remember was one by Ian Kirby. He discusses different approaches and how to do each, if my memory still exists.

[Richard Hutchings]

"eta: also, are you positioned so that you can see square in the right direction?"
No, I seem to have done everything wrong in spite of watching professionals do it on YT. By the time I get into the shop, seems I've forgotten everything they said. I'll get it, just need a couple more projects with a few M&Ts.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I learned to set your mortice gauge to the width of the mortice chisel you will use, and mark both the mortice and tenon with the same gauge setting.

Eric you raise an interesting point. I recently checked my mortising chisels (Ray Iles) and all of them were off their width by a couple of thou or more. The same is true for a vintage pigsticker I own. They are still great chisels, the take home for me is not to get a mortising gauge with fixed distance spacing

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I do have one trick that helps me (as a relative novice) I think it was Derek Cohen but I'm not sure. .

When you mark out your mortise layout with a knife make a few passes to deepen the layout lines. then either with a chisel or a router plane pare out the shallow waste. the knife wall can be useful in guiding your mortising.

[Scott Clausen]

Eric you raise an interesting point. I recently checked my mortising chisels (Ray Iles) and all of them were off their width by a couple of thou or more. The same is true for a vintage pigsticker I own. They are still great chisels, the take home for me is not to get a mortising gauge with fixed distance spacing

The actual distance is not important, setting the gauge to the size of whatever chisel you choose is. Also mortise chisels normally get slightly more narrow as you move away from the tip to prevent binding.