Water based lacquers

[Jim Tobias]

Has anyone had any experience using Enduro brand of water based lacquer? I want to attempt to spray some lacquer finishes, but do not want to deal wiht the inherent dangers(fumes and flammability). I understand that it limits the type of material that one would use to "pop the grain" (Danish Oil, Tung OIl, BLO), etc.
Any feedback would be helpful. I want to get a Sawmill Creek education on this before I invest.

Jim

[tod evans]

jim, regardless of what the can says, if it`s waterbased it aint lacquer! i`ve never used the product you ask of sorry.....02 tod

[David Duke]

I've never used the Endura brand but I have used Target Coatings, Ultimate Spraying Lacquer. It is a water based acrylic lacquer. Since I'm not a chemist nor a finishing specialist I can't say if it is "real" lacquer but according to the specs the finished film once dry is the same as the "regular" lacquer finishes, plus it has the same burn in capability and you can re-coat in 30-45 minutes. I haven't been using this stuff too long but have been impressed with the results I have been getting.

[Anthony Anderson]

Jim, sorry I have no experience with the brand you stated.

Tod, I disagree (with all respect). Water based lacquer has many of the same technical properties as Nitro lacquer (100% burn in, fast dry, easy and fast recoat) without the inherent risks of Nitro lacquer(nasty smell, massive brain cell damage if precautions are not taken; and then still some cell damage if precautions are taken, risk of fire or explosion, etc). Water allows the material to be transported rather than the toxic NC platisizers. Now if a person was saying that Waterborne lacquer is not the same NC lacquer then they would be correct. The difference is that one is NC based and the other is water based. Think of the water based poly. Does it mean that it is not a poly simply because it is water based? I am not a chemist and this is my understanding based upon my limited knowledge. Jim, Good Luck and let us know how it works out, Bill

[Jim Becker]

Anthony, all of the water borne products are acrylics. In some cases, companies like Target Coatings have been able to chemically engineer things so that the product in question exhibits properties similar to lacquer--but they are still acrylics. USL is a fine example. Folks used to spraying NC Lacquer will often like this product because it has that 100% burn in property that makes each coat become effectively part of the previous applications...you end up with one layer, rather than multiple layers like you have with varnish. It acts like an evaporative finish like lacquer and shellac. Other water borne products still go on in discrete layers...they are all different.

In the case of water borne "poly", there are urethanes added to the acrylics to impart some of the abrasion resistant properties that polyurethane varnish (oil based) has.

------
Jim, you can still use your oil of choice to "pop the grain" with water borne products. You either need to let the oil FULLY cure or...use a barrier coat of de-waxed shellac to both seal the oil and add some coloration that will not be inherent in the water borne finish. (The one aesthetic issue that many folks have with water borne products...)

[tod evans]

Jim, sorry I have no experience with the brand you stated.

Tod, I disagree (with all respect). Water based lacquer has many of the same technical properties as Nitro lacquer (100% burn in, fast dry, easy and fast recoat) without the inherent risks of Nitro lacquer(nasty smell, massive brain cell damage if precautions are not taken; and then still some cell damage if precautions are taken, risk of fire or explosion, etc). Water allows the material to be transported rather than the toxic NC platisizers. Now if a person was saying that Waterborne lacquer is not the same NC lacquer then they would be correct. The difference is that one is NC based and the other is water based. Think of the water based poly. Does it mean that it is not a poly simply because it is water based? I am not a chemist and this is my understanding based upon my limited knowledge. Jim, Good Luck and let us know how it works out, Bill

anthony, i`ve shot a pic of the first page of an article in sept 05 issue of woodshop news written by bob flexner. i`m not a chemist either but this article will back my opinion......02 tod
MVC-177S.JPG

[Byron Trantham]

Like Mr Duke, I have been using Target USL for quite a while now and love it. It easy to clean, sprays beautifully and behaves just like the NS counterpart. I started with the NS stuff and found out quickly how nasty that stuff is. It was NS lacquer that drove me to convert over to ALL water based material. I recently visited one of my clients who had me build a wall unit that has a desk built in. The desk surface gets lots of wear and tear and after seven months (so far) it looks like new.

[Cecil Arnold]

Jim, I've used the Enduro brand and with one exception found it to be a good coating. The exception seems to be endemic to water borne products. All organic type petroleum/alcohol based finishes (varnish, shellac, lacquer) will give the wood a warm amber tone. Enduro will not, unless you order it with the amber tint. It still will not be as warm as with the other finishes IMHO, and spraying is more difficult as you can get streaking if you are not proficient with your spray gun DAMHIKT. I have also used the colored Enduro for painted kitchen cabs. and think it's great in that application. If you chose to use this product and want to "pop the grain" I would recommend several coats (2) of 1 lb. cut dewaxed shellac in the appropriate color as a seal coat. Enduro will attempt to sell you their seal coat, but I did get them to admit shellac is acceptable. While I have not tried this with their clear finish, I think I would on any other projects that I might do. I think it would negate the need for the amber tint. Good luck on your project.

[Joe Chritz]

I just got done reading one of the articles about waterbased finishes on the Target coatings website. It explains the difference fairly well in terms I can understand.

In speaking with someone who should know (a chemical engineer) it does appear that water based lacquer really isn't lacquer. I add this though, a rose by any other name..... I guess I care less what it is called and more how it performs.

I haven't used any of the water finishes but after some research I am going to order up some Target coatings USL and give it a whirl. If I don't like it I am back to pre-cat and am not out much.

I would recommend a trip to the target website and read the articles. Today I am going to do some looking into the Fuhr products as well and maybe order up something from them. I need something for the inside of cabinet boxes as well.

Joe

[Tim Sproul]

I just recently tried Target USL. It sprays easily....and I'm a newb in spraying.

The first coat following shellac was a bit rougher than I expected but I knocked it down with 400 grit. Subsequent coats came out very smooth - not baby butt smooth but certainly production furniture grade smooth.

It also dried odorless within a day.

[Anthony Anderson]

anthony, i`ve shot a pic of the first page of an article in sept 05 issue of woodshop news written by bob flexner. i`m not a chemist either but this article will back my opinion......02 tod
MVC-177S.JPG

Tod, thanks for the reference to the article. I am going to see if I can order a copy of that issue. I'm always into learning something new. I am new to these waterborne materials, so I am still creating my understanding of them. It is my understanding that the water based lacquers can be used the same way with many of the same characteristics of NC lacquer. 100% burn in, fast dry and recoat etc. Just wondering if you have ever tried any of them. Or do you feel that it is not worth to make the change? Thanks again, Bill

Hey Tod, BTW, I used to share your method of one fingered typing. Man that was a pain in the @$$. I bought this program called Typing Instructor Deluxe at the Big Blue and Yellow Electronics store. I spent about 15-20minutes a night on it for 6-8months, and I am typing about 45words per minute. Not always accurate as I want to be, but it is still an improvement. Thought I would let you know. Regards, Bill

Jim, Sorry I didn't mean to steal your thread. Regards, Bill

[Jim Tobias]

I appreciate the info and feedback so far. It appears to me that there are a several brands of products that have different claims/characteristics. Then there seems to be personal preferences (which is fine, I certainly have mine in some areas) that tell me that if you use something long enough and get comfortable with it, you will probably like the results. Anyway I appreciate the feedback and as always, I've learned a lot. I will begin the "trial and error" stage of using NC lacquer and will also try the water based products. I hope the water based products live up the their ads. It would certainly make life in the workshop more comfortable(no fumes, no danger). I will keep you posted.

Thanks again to all,

Jim

[tod evans]

Tod, thanks for the reference to the article. I am going to see if I can order a copy of that issue. I'm always into learning something new. I am new to these waterborne materials, so I am still creating my understanding of them. It is my understanding that the water based lacquers can be used the same way with many of the same characteristics of NC lacquer. 100% burn in, fast dry and recoat etc. Just wondering if you have ever tried any of them. Or do you feel that it is not worth to make the change? Thanks again, Bill

Hey Tod, BTW, I used to share your method of one fingered typing. Man that was a pain in the @$$. I bought this program called Typing Instructor Deluxe at the Big Blue and Yellow Electronics store. I spent about 15-20minutes a night on it for 6-8months, and I am typing about 45words per minute. Not always accurate as I want to be, but it is still an improvement. Thought I would let you know. Regards, Bill

Jim, Sorry I didn't mean to steal your thread. Regards, Bill

thanks bill, when i was in the service we had to learn typing on the old manual units, that was a pain! i suppose if i keep up on this smc forum i`ll eventually go two handed like the rest of society. and i do intend to try the target coatings even though they are about 3x what i pay for lacquer just to see if they really do work as folks say? i really like being able to quickly repair scratches 5-10 yrs down the road which is the main reason i`ve steered clear of acrylics......02 tod

[Tim Sproul]

.....i do intend to try the target coatings even though they are about 3x what i pay for lacquer just to see if they really do work as folks say? .

Where are you getting a good nitro spray lacquer for $12/gallon?

[Jim Becker]

It appears to me that there are a several brands of products that have different claims/characteristics.

The characteristics are PRODUCT specific. For example, "burn in" is a feature of Target's USL, but not of other products they sell. VOC level also varies...look at the can when you get the material you choose to try. It will have a tree-number safety key on the label. Fuhr seems to have the lowest VOC that I've seen so far, although Target is "darn close".