Temple Grandin on Algebra (she’s agin it)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I continue to have embarrassing "should have paid more attention in school" experiences. Especially Math, Algebra and Trigonometry. What are all of those mysterious extra buttons on the kids calculators? I have had the building Inspector tell me to "Show engineering" On things like ridge beams and cantilevers. The kids were a big help showing me how to make and solve the equations. So far my tailgate engineering produces things that are ridiculously over built. I wish I could stamp my designs... Should have paid more attention in school!

[glenn bradley]

He ended up in a six-month battle with the local school board over it. "What, you want your kid to be a secretary?!?"
(Oddly enough, they would let boys substitute home-ec for shop, but not typing.)

A testament to the shortsightedness of that age 50-ish years ago. Sadly many current community leaders still cling to these views even today. The decline of the arts in our public schools is inexcusable but a reality for a few generations now trying to deal with the world as adults. My heart goes out to young people often dismissed as ignorant simply because we didn't expose them to a broader range of experiences in public school.

[Thomas Wilson]

Wonderful post Thomas. I'm going to copy and paste it to send to some of my Scientist friends if you give permission.

Temple has given talks at NASA. There are quite a number of very high functioning Autistic folks, and some of them are top Mathematicians. NASA saw that there would probably be benefit from hearing Temple's views. She stayed with some friends of ours back then while she was there.

Please correct the typing before sending it. I would love to meet Temple Grandin and get a hug.

[Tom M King]

I never met her, but was just told about that.

[Kevin Jenness]

An interesting discussion by Richard Feynman of the relationship of math and physics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw

The mathematicians are only dealing with the structure of reasoning...they don't even need to know what they are talking about

If you want to discuss nature...it's necessary to find out the language she speaks in

[Edwin Santos]

A few thoughts on this interesting subject in no particular order:

The claim of what is and isn't applicable to the real world can only be made in hindsight. Usually at the time the student is a student, his/her future isn't completely known. So who's to say their path won't take them to a place where the curriculum won't be used in their real world?

Then there's the issue of not every piece of subject matter needs to have direct practical applicability. Sometimes, the idea is that the brain is a muscle and exercising it in ways that might seem eccentric is part of building the foundation for future problem solving in general.

But I agree if a student cannot grasp a given subject for whatever reason, the school should be able to offer an alternative. When I was in high school, there were some kids that could not succeed at algebra. I recall the alternative was a class they called Business Math which was mostly an expansion of arithmetic applied to the real world i.e. percentages, interest rate calculations, how discounts/markups are calculated, how loans are calculated.

If a curriculum truly needs to be restricted to daily working practice, I think we're then into the realm of trade schools. Not a bad alternative at all for many. And for people like Temple Grandin who have particular situations that pose challenges, I think it's a great thing that alternatives be available so talent is not obstructed by the barriers of convention.

This past week an interesting dust-up got a lot of press. The gist of it is a professor of chemistry at NYU was fired when 82 of his 350 students (dissatisfied with their grades) signed a petition of complaint that his med school class in organic chemistry was unduly hard. Plus they had sundry other complaints about his teaching style. There are good arguments on both sides of the issue.

One is that the 80 year old professor was way past his prime, he was in the wrong role, wasn't showing a true commitment to the success of his students, and demonstrated curt sarcasm and dismissiveness in lecture.
And organic chemistry isn't used by most physicians on a daily basis in the real world anyway.

The other argument is that he is a distinguished professor whose textbook on organic chemistry is now in its 5th edition.
Organic chemistry is a weed out class, designed to be hard because succeeding in medical school is supposed to be rigorous.
And what precedent does it set when 82 out of 350 students, ostensibly dissatisfied with their grades can get a professor fired?
What about the students who were succeeding in the class and didn't see fit to sign the petition of complaint? Does their success suggest the professor couldn't have been all that bad?

Student centered education is a sound concept but taken too far, it can get into participation trophy mentality where by design every student must walk away a winner - definitely not the way the real world works.

[Ron Citerone]

A few thoughts on this interesting subject in no particular order:

The claim of what is and isn't applicable to the real world can only be made in hindsight. Usually at the time the student is a student, his/her future isn't completely known. So who's to say their path won't take them to a place where the curriculum won't be used in their real world?

Then there's the issue of not every piece of subject matter needs to have direct practical applicability. Sometimes, the idea is that the brain is a muscle and exercising it in ways that might seem eccentric is part of building the foundation for future problem solving in general.

But I agree if a student cannot grasp a given subject for whatever reason, the school should be able to offer an alternative. When I was in high school, there were some kids that could not succeed at algebra. I recall the alternative was a class they called Business Math which was mostly an expansion of arithmetic applied to the real world i.e. percentages, interest rate calculations, how discounts/markups are calculated, how loans are calculated.

If a curriculum truly needs to be restricted to daily working practice, I think we're then into the realm of trade schools. Not a bad alternative at all for many. And for people like Temple Grandin who have particular situations that pose challenges, I think it's a great thing that alternatives be available so talent is not obstructed by the barriers of convention.

This past week an interesting dust-up got a lot of press. The gist of it is a professor of chemistry at NYU was fired when 82 of his 350 students (dissatisfied with their grades) signed a petition of complaint that his med school class in organic chemistry was unduly hard. Plus they had sundry other complaints about his teaching style. There are good arguments on both sides of the issue.

One is that the 80 year old professor was way past his prime, he was in the wrong role, wasn't showing a true commitment to the success of his students, and demonstrated curt sarcasm and dismissiveness in lecture.
And organic chemistry isn't used by most physicians on a daily basis in the real world anyway.

The other argument is that he is a distinguished professor whose textbook on organic chemistry is now in its 5th edition.
Organic chemistry is a weed out class, designed to be hard because succeeding in medical school is supposed to be rigorous.
And what precedent does it set when 82 out of 350 students, ostensibly dissatisfied with their grades can get a professor fired?
What about the students who were succeeding in the class and didn't see fit to sign the petition of complaint? Does their success suggest the professor couldn't have been all that bad?

Student centered education is a sound concept but taken too far, it can get into participation trophy mentality where by design every student must walk away a winner - definitely not the way the real world works.

Nice well thought out post Edwin. It clearly makes sense that a student forced to take a class they can't possibly pass is counter productive. My friend taught Algebra to some of the top kids in our district when I taught. For many, it was the first time they had a math class they couldn't ace without working hard. Many wanted out. He always talked to the student and their parent to stick it out and work hard before they bail out. Most of them ended up succeeding and doing fine. Every time a kid struggles or doesn't get an A doesn't mean he should get an easy way out. My district also offered an Algebra class that ran longer at a slightly slower pace for some kids who were struggling and many made it through that way.

[Dan Friedrichs]

While an poignant example of the need for accommodations, the conclusion that "higher math isn't needed in most fields so shouldn't be widely taught" is bizarre. She gives the example that, "I teach veterinarians, but I couldn’t get into veterinary school myself, because I couldn’t do the math". Presumably veterinarians need math for dosing or other such tasks. There are many educators in professional programs who couldn't get into those programs - human anatomy, even at medical schools, is often taught by anatomists (non-MDs); chemistry (certainly key to pharmacology) taught by PhD chemists (non-pharmacists); even in fine arts, there is coursework taught by those who likely lack the artistic talent of their students; etc. Inability to do math precludes certain professional careers.

Some replies to this thread from engineers point out that they don't make use of higher math in their careers. I'd argue this violates a basic tenant of engineering, which is to do work based on an understanding of first scientific principles. Certainly I have not hand-calculated a Fourier transform since engineering school, and I am grateful that tools exist to do this work for me with the press of a button - but merely pressing the button without understanding the underlying math is the definition of technician work. Understanding the calculations that take place when the button is pressed (and being able to replicate them myself) enables troubleshooting, deeper understanding, prevents overreliance on opaque tools, etc.

[Bill Dufour]

My high school district requires passing algebra to graduate. No auto shop or metal shop classes are left. I think there are two home ec teachers left in seven schools. Typing class is gone replaced by computer lit or some such. Half the schools still have woodshop.
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My high school district requires passing algebra to graduate. No auto shop or metal shop classes are left. I think there are two home ec teachers left in seven schools. Typing class is gone replaced by computer lit or some such. Half the schools still have woodshop.
Bill D

I posted before that my last math class was Fundamentals of Algebra in the 8th grade. It is embarrassing. The the rural school let me graduate.

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm of the belief that learning statistics is far more useful in daily life than calculus.

I'm an MIT grad, perfect Math SAT scores, blah, blah, blah so clearly did my part in taking high-level university math courses, calculus, partial differential equations, etc... And was good at it many moons ago. Plus I had to get A's in them at MIT to get into medical school. And the music majors there I knew had a perfect math SAT scores, so I perfectly understand that this wasn't a representative group.

Have I used any of that math since college? Precisely zero. And I'm a cardiothoracic anesthesiologist, so not exactly a low tech specialty in medicine. I did realize then that knowing statistics could prove useful in evaluating studies, etc... so I also took statistics in college. Great move. Use that knowledge all the time. Especially during COVID-19 looking at medical studies, not newspaper articles. Not going to get into politics, but the difference between medical articles and what is reported in the lay press is staggering.

I really think that Algebra and statistics should be mandatory in high school. Trigonometry and calculus, no.

One man's opinion.

[Bill Dufour]

My uncle was a rocket scientist, chemist, for the Navy then Lockheed. He said he only used above algebra one time in his career. It was to run a round pipe through a round fuel tank at an angle. There is math to cut the hole shape. Any errors the welder filled.
He liked the job so much when the navy said he had to stay away for 6 weeks a year of vaction. He quiot and went to Lockheed. They told him at the interview he could come in any time, any day but only get paid for scheduled work days.
Bill D
Bill D

[Stan Calow]

I first heard of her on NPR years ago. I thought her books on animals were amazing. I'm not sure she's an expert on education. I think I understand her point. I agree more non-college paths should be available. But I dont think we as a society are collectively smart enough to identify and select children before they've been exposed to the hard subjects.

A teacher friend said once that teaching was all about pushing and tricking children to learn things against their will. Unfortunately, our society has made being good at hard things, like algebra and science, a negative (nerds and geeks). How many times have you heard adults say "Im not good at math", bragging, as if taking pride in ignorance. That trickles drown and gives kids (especially girls) permission to fail. In Ms Grandin's case, there's a reason. But that doesn't mean we need to avoid teaching the hard subjects. Or to start sorting the kids who can from those that can't, before they even try.

I too suffered through 15 credit-hours of calculus and differential equations. Most of which I only temporarily understood. But I'm glad I persevered. No, I never used any in my job, but because I had gone through it, I understood that calculus was behind most of the science and technology with which I worked. A high school math teacher told us that "if you don't learn this, you'll be dependent on people who do, and wont even know it."

[Mark Rainey]

A teacher friend said once that teaching was all about pushing and tricking children to learn things against their will.

Interesting, but dark commentary on education today. I can see why we have a teacher shortage. We learn best when we are intrinsically ( self ) motivated. Almost all on this forum are self motivated to build good things. That is what pushes us - ourselves. Extrinsic motivation is when you are forced to learn about something you have no interest it. Sometimes you must learn about things you have no interest in...but the quality of learning pales in comparison. Good teachers facilitate learning. Force feeding of knowledge rarely achieves long term results.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I was pretty immature during HS but managed to take most of the higher-level science and math courses offered with the exception being calculus. As an adult, I wished I had taken calculus. Professionally, working in electronics in air traffic control maintenance and then in diagnostic imaging (MR, CT and x-ray) the level of math needed made me glad I'd taken algebra and trig. But the HS class I used most was the typing class I took in HS. I took it because I thought I would go to college immediately after HS and would need it for term papers. My lack of maturity, passing the draft physical and car payments for the '64 SS Impala convertible I bought, got in the way of my initially entering college. In the age of digital electronics, the typing class was a great boon due to the amount of time spent on a keyboard to install, calibrate, align and troubleshoot the machines.

On one family of CT scanners, there existed a chassis, used to in the backprojection portion of the reconstruction process, that the electronic circuits actually performed a specific polynomial equation. The diagnostic programs for the chassis which had a dozen or more rather large circuit boards actually ran known data values though the chassis, analyzed the resultant errors to diagnose the problem and provide you a suspected board, with a chip map for that board indicating which of the socketed chips need to be replaced.