enough whining! how many will do something?

[Frank Pellow]

I have to add this, there is already a North American Produced Machine avalible to all of us. General (not General International) produces machines made in Canada.

How many of you out there own one???

I own one. And, I have my eye on a second one.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

It would also be nice to have pen kits and such also made in North America
All of those componets are also made overseas
ken

[Frank Pellow]

I agree Tod, but that's likely to change pretty soon, what with the elections they just had.
...

The less said about the result of our election the better. But, I expect that we will get a chance to change things again in about two years.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I own one. And, I have my eye on a second one.

Frank,
I owned the Genreral 14" model 130 planer. I sold it when I bought my MiniMax FS41. The general was a beautiful machine. If I ever had to go back to the "old ways" , today, my shop would be all General Canadian

[Allen Grimes]

I was thinking, I only really need 2 more machines to have an efficient WW shop, and those 2 are a jointer and a planer. I think that if I go cheap with those 2 machines, I can use them to help me make the money so I dont have to buy any chinese/taiwanese machines ever again.

It might take a little longer for me to get what I want, but I think it is worth it to at least have the piece of mind that I am supporting my country.

I am all for supporting America and I am willing to help you guys if you are serious, but I wont be able to help until after I get my own situation under control.

Also I was thinking, it would be a good idea to put a complete list of all the companies that make their tools in the USA. The reason I say this is because there are some companies that I am just finding out about. For example, until John M. posted his complaints about Starrett I didnt know that they were an American company. I also never heard of Quincy or Brown and Sharpe until a couple days ago.

My point is I never even knew that these companies were options, but now that I do, they are definately companies that I would buy from. More importantly, I am sure that there are othe US companies that I dont know about that I would much rather give my money too, instead of some of my other options.

[Tom Donalek]

Let me throw out a crazy alternative to 'starting a new company'. What if folks collaborated with an existing tool company to create a 'made in US/North America' tool line. I'm thinking of Grizzly, but there are other companies also. In essence this would compete with the General/General International lines. Such a collaboration would cut out all the huge problems of getting any company off the ground, and would have critical elements such as sales/marketing and distribution already in place. Of course, the downside to this is what happens when you can look at one catalog and compare the US/NA made tool to the import and see that you're paying twice(?) as much and not getting that much different a tool.

(My other side bar is: How much is this about just being tool-freaks? I'm a huge tool-freak, but in the end, isn't woodworking about the wood at the end of the process? There are plenty of people out there who have tuned up their 'crappy import' tools and make beautiful work. I don't want to go on too much of an economics rant, but isn't it to our benefit that some guy in China is spending his time making low-tech, low-value cast iron pieces, while some guy in the US is spending his time making extremely high-value fine furniture? Where would our economies be if it was reversed?)

[Art Mulder]

I have to add this, there is already a North American Produced Machine avalible to all of us. General (not General International) produces machines made in Canada.

How many of you out there own one???

Nope, not me. And I even live in Canada. I do have a GI saw, which at least comes with a Canadian Made fence. The pure General stuff is just, IMHO, too expensive for the average hobbyist.

Now some questions...

- why isn't General building (in Canada) some more of the lower-priced stuff.

- why is it that Lee Valley -- a succesfull large retailer, as well as a manufacturer -- is staying out of the machinery business?

- what is the size of your market? There are currently just over 6200 SMC members. That isn't that large a market. Suppose you are going to sell a $500 item of some kind. It is a stupendous tool and we all want it. If everyone of us bought one, that would be 3.1 million bucks. And since it is a good quality item, it is going to last "a lifetime". So that market segment is tapped.

I'm a computer guy, I don't work in manufacturing, but I think that 3.1million is not much in terms of setting up a domestic market. And that assumes that all of us buy, which isn't gonna happen. Just how big is the woodworking tool market in Canada and the USA ??


Hmm, how about a company that specializes in locating, obtaining, fixing up, and selling all those great old big-iron tools of the past 100 years. That is one way to buy domestic without having to worry about setting up a factory. You've got the web for marketing, and UPS for delivery.

ahh well...

[Ed Kowaski]

I don't believe North America lost it's manufacturing industry. We gave it away. There was little if any innovation, prices were insane and quality was non existant. When I looked for my first thinckness planer there was only one option. A Rockwell Delta 12" floor model, had a 2 knife cutter head slightly larger then a pencil, did a terrible finish and cost > 5K. At that time my house cost 24K. In today terms that's a 25K planer and it was a total POS plain and simple.

These days I look for a format slider, never been one made in North America that I know of. Perhaps the question should be how many can do something.

[tod evans]

These days I look for a format slider, never been one made in North America that I know of. Perhaps the question should be how many can do something.

well ed i`m watching the comments pro and con as are lots of folks and in my little hillbilly mind only one thing keeps popping up; "cain`t never got nothin` done!" .......02 tod

[Roger Los]

One thing to think of, perhaps, is that these imbalances don't last forever. Right now it's cheap to build machines overseas, but that will change at some point. For example, if bulk oil goes through the roof, it might cost more to ship the finished tool from the other side of the world than you can save in labor.

That said, I do try to buy local (which can mean "made as close to me as possible") goods when I can, whether it's furniture, food, tools, or what-not. I will pay a premium to do so, but my ability to pay that premium is limited. I'd pay double for a good wrench made locally versus a cheap import, but I simply cannot pay double for a several-hundred or thousand dollar machine that I don't use frequently enough to warrant the investment.

Tod (I believe) had it right: the only responsbility that corporations have is a fiduciary one to their shareholders. That is what will eventually turn all companies "with a conscience", like CostCo, which pays a nice wage to all of their employees, into WalMart "we encourage employees to sign up for welfare" clones. I invest specifically in CostCo because of that aspect of their business, but if the economy hits a really rough spot and their shares tumble, institutional investors are going to say "cut costs, you're paying a cashier $40K a year, you can pay them $20K." That's why the Google slogan "do no evil" is a joke...they will eventually have little choice about "doing evil" if their big shareholders demand returns that require it.

Ahem. Can you see why I'm not invited to parties much?

[Andy Hoyt]

No great thing was ever accomplished without some measure of sacrifice. This was just as true for our War for Independence as it was for the space race of the fifties and sixties.

To achieve the goal that this thread proposes will indeed require sacrifice, as well. For most of us that would mean digging deeper into our pockets. But I am reminded that by doing so we would be honoring a committment each of made when we chose to reproduce.

[Ed Kowaski]

"cain`t never got nothin` done!" .......02 tod

North America is to way big for me to look after without co operation from gov't. I can, with some effort, get things done in my shop. I've seen your work, obviously you can too.

I'm not sure I understand what you said and I'd like to.

[Tim Sproul]

The country of origin has little to do with the quality of good produced. The country of origin can have an effect on the price of some goods, but not all. Labor is only a part of the cost. Part of the cost of manufacturing is also regulatory. OSHA. EPA. To name a couple regulatory agencies that can deeply affect the cost to produce here in the US. Many such agencies are non-existant in third world countries.

Let's not forget 'attitude' differences. It certainly doesn't apply to all individuals, but on a whole, American workers have quite a sense of entitlement compared to workers in many other parts of the world. I suspect this same sense of entitlement is also why many of you feel that blame for loss in manufacturing work resides elsewhere. Look within before you go pointing fingers out. I find it a bit odd that a UAW worker typically makes a whole lot more moula than an elementary school teacher. Culpability lies within us all for the downfall in US manufacturing.

Other factors - the company itself. A company has to come to terms with quality versus revenue versus cost versus margin blah blah blah. It seems unreasonable to think every company should be out to make only the highest quality good. You'd be paying $50 for a spoon then. Heck, one might argue that the infusion of 'common' man money into the stock market has been a huge pressure on companies to eek out the highest profit margins at any cost....and hence the drive to find ANY way to reduce costs.

The country of origin typically plays only a minor role in my decision to purchase a product or not. Certain factors may make the country of origin become a major contributor but normally, it isn't much of a consideration. I kinda like the fact that I can purchase underwear for $5 instead of $20.

[Andy Hoyt]

I just figured something out about this notion. Some of us are thinking about this with respect to how it might affect one's self in a lifetime; and some of us are thinking about the long term effect upon our society.

[tod evans]

I just figured something out about this notion. Some of us are thinking about this with respect to how it might affect one's self in a lifetime; and some of us are thinking about the long term effect upon our society.

thanks andy! much better than my version..... unless most of us are teenagers who allready know everything it`s up to us as a group to build and grow with the knowledge and wealth we posses. whether or not we want to admit it we are the forefathers our kids and grandkids will either cuss or praise.