enough whining! how many will do something?

[tod evans]

tom,
if through the collective wisdom here longer lasting, more accurate tools can be produced in america that will be a good thing in my opinion.
if these imaginary tools can be sold to the public at what the public perceives is a fair price that too will be a good thing in my opinion.
if i play any part in their manufacture they will be built using american foundries, electronics and labor.
no i wouldn`t worry about taking jobs away from foreign labor and the american suits who exploit them any more than they have worried about the jobs they have taken from the u.s. manufacturing industry.
i`m very sorry if the premmis of another american tool manufacturer doesn`t sit well with you because just the thought of high quality made in america tools gives me a good feeling....02 tod

[Cecil Arnold]

Before I check in on Tom's post with my .02 I think I have an idea for a product. While it is not necessarily "heavy iron" it is something I think a number of us would like to have if price were not such a consideration. It would be a "middle market" tool that would appeal to the advanced hobbiest and possibly to smaller pro shops. What is it? a multi router. I know they are available in the $2500+ range, and griz has a horizontal boring unit that some are using as a substitute for $325. But to produce an XYZ capable unit at a price around $5-1200 (final price would obviously depend on costs to produce) might be the startup niche that everyone seems to be looking for. While there are a number of folks here who might be able to design the unit, what I have in mind is something that could be easily designed by the folks who do the design work for Woodpecker and Inca. A heavy gage aluminum unit with quality steel hold downs, bearings, and steel tracks, powered by an appropriate motor with the capacity to chuck end mills up to 5/8".

Tom, my problem with the global market place is that the playing field is not now, and may never be level. You and I have both cited Toyota in various posts as being an example of the gains made from quality and price, however the politics in Toyota's final cost to produce has been overlooked. That is the politics of Japan's social safety net (universal health care) vs. ours. I was as surprised as anyone 15 years ago when this issue was being discussed to see Orren Hatch and Ted Kennedy re framed it as a competitiveness issue, which it still is today. Ford et al have a $1500 per unit health care cost that is met in a different, less costly, way in Japan. IMHO we are paying for universal health care in this country, regardless, by the most expensive means available. That is through both emergency medical services (poor people call EMS rather than having the ability to go to a pay for service provider) and city/county charity hospitals. We are at heart a Christian country and will not stand by and watch people die, so we support this, but nor preventive health care. While the global marketplace is a good idea, you have also overlooked the issue of tibalisem, which plays a major role in all politics.

I'm not disagreeing with much, but the whole issue of USA made vs. offshore manufacturing is much more complex IMHO than we have the time or even expertise to address. I'll post this now, as it has been my experience that once I get to the point of posting on subjects like this the whole thing gets locked away by a moderator.

[Lee DeRaud]

Tod, I've stayed out of this discussion because it is intensely political at a very gut level. I think you need to take a deep breath and provide an honest thoughtful answer to a simple question:

Is what you're proposing really intended to be a business?

Because regardless of how much sympathy I have for your position, "because it gives me a good feeling" is not a sound basis for a business plan.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'll post this now, as it has been my experience that once I get to the point of posting on subjects like this the whole thing gets locked away by a moderator.

Hey, I thought I was the "Designated Thread-Killer"!?!

[tod evans]

Tod, I've stayed out of this discussion because it is intensely political at a very gut level. I think you need to take a deep breath and provide an honest thoughtful answer to a simple question:

Is what you're proposing really intended to be a business?

Because regardless of how much sympathy I have for your position, "because it gives me a good feeling" is not a sound basis for a business plan.

lee, i honestly don`t know if this idea will ever take off? i think it has the possibility to be successful. if we look at the average u.s. manufacturer that has had or is having dificultities one common factor is an abundance of suit-n-tie folks drawing large checks and not actually building anything. all of the popular importers share this trait. if a company could somehow just produce without an abundance of management it seems they would be leaps and bounds ahead of the game......heck, i`m just a carpenter who struggles to put beans on the table not some business guru....but when i look at the offerings on the plate today i just have to wonder if there isn`t a better way.. most of the folks here are smarter than i am and so far it seems as though the majority are saying that if it could be done it would be supported. so far john is the only one to come up with an adgenda of sorts and i don`t think anyone could argue the fact that talking about building tools here is a step in the right direction? this wouldn`t be a business plan but talking could possibly lead to an actual plan......02 tod

[Cecil Arnold]

Lee, we must be the gruesome twosome then. Seems that every time I get insightful and wordy, and take the time to make a long post on something I see as a complexity, someone gets their feelings hurt and "poof" the thread is gone to moderator's neverland (not Michael Jackson's ranch, however where I might be able to get a big $$ payoff for not seeing anything). Do you think there may be too many folks here who wear their feelings on their sleeves? That attitude sure wouldn't make it in the oil patch.

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, I think you are right to some extent about the suits. I taught at a small community college for some years. They had a permanent staff of around 280. Faculty, the point of the spear, or where the rubber meets the road, to use a couple of metaphors, numbered about 80, the rest were support staff. It was much easier to add a secretary, janitor, or CE coordinator than to add an English or history teacher.

[Bill Simmeth]

As much as I love the concept of everyone around the world holding hands and singing Kumbaya, I'm sure that the Chinese politburo and their newest corporate sponsor, Google, will make sure the human chain ends at the Great Wall.

I say, the heck with tools, lets all crank up the lathes and flood the Chinese market with cheap chopsticks and rice bowls!

(How's that for an apolitcal statement?)

[Ed Kowaski]

Cecil, if I got it right, your suggesting taking a currently available high quality US made machine, the multi router and making a cheaper knock off?

Seem like this is the same line of reasoning that spawned the situation that spawned this thread.

Ed

[Lee DeRaud]

Cecil, if I got it right, your suggesting taking a currently available high quality US made machine, the multi router and making a cheaper knock off?

Seem like this is the same line of reasoning that spawned the situation that spawned this thread.

I think you're starting to understand why I've stayed out of this thread.

"Better, faster, cheaper...pick any two." And if you overconstrain the problem with restrictions unrelated to price/quality/functionality, you'll quickly find yourself working with "pick any one". Or worse, "none of the above".

[Cecil Arnold]

Ed, you can buy a Ford, a Chevy, or a Cadallac. Which one is the cheap knock off? Or you can get a Toyota, a Mercedes, or Hyundei (sp?) to put it in an international setting. Business thrives by filling a need, and while I'm not particulary pro business I think not everyone who woodworks as a hobby needs a $2500 machine. Unfortunately as a manufacturing entity the US seems to have to failed to innovate, giving us the same 1950s Unisaw with a few (very few) added bells and whistles. Could someone build a better multi router? I think so, but at what cost and to how big a market. Could someone build a multi router that performs as well at a lower cost, therefore opening up the potential market to sell more units, I again think so.

[Doug Jones]

My thoughts as I have read this thread, start small and see how it flies.
You need to produce a product that people want, make them feel they have a need for it even if they don't realize it yet.
The one thing that every woodworker wants, whether it be a beginner, an expert, round work, flat work, or anything in between, a reasonably priced quality measuring devises that even average Mr.X citizen can afford. Steel rules, squares, combination squares, T-squares. Yes, these things are already out there but they are priced at a level to where a beginner won't even consider them. So he'll buy a cheaper brand of lesser quality and from a different country. If you get a customer as a beginner, then chances are he will stay with you as an expert. Then thats where word of mouth comes in as well as endorsements.
Why do you have to jump right into the big stuff first? Start small, get the companies name out in the market then use profits and recognition to get into the big stuff.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

[Frank Pellow]

My thoughts as I have read this thread, start small and see how it flies.
You need to produce a product that people want, make them feel they have a need for it even if they don't realize it yet.
The one thing that every woodworker wants, whether it be a beginner, an expert, round work, flat work, or anything in between, a reasonably priced quality measuring devises that even average Mr.X citizen can afford. Steel rules, squares, combination squares, T-squares. Yes, these things are already out there but they are priced at a level to where a beginner won't even consider them. So he'll buy a cheaper brand of lesser quality and from a different country. If you get a customer as a beginner, then chances are he will stay with you as an expert. Then thats where word of mouth comes in as well as endorsements.
Why do you have to jump right into the big stuff first? Start small, get the companies name out in the market then use profits and recognition to get into the big stuff.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

I suggest that Lee Valley is already filling this need (and filling it very very well). And, a lot of the measuring, squaring, and leveling tools that they sell are of their made in Canada (and sometimes the USA) inovative Veritas brand.

[Doug Jones]

I suggest that Lee Valley is already filling this need (and filling it very very well). And, a lot of the measuring, squaring, and leveling tools that they sell are of their made in Canada (and sometimes the USA) inovative Veritas brand.

Exactly my point. Speaking as a beginner (not that I am), "who is Lee Valley, who is Incra, who is Jointech, who is Starrett". You build a quality devise and market it in the common areas not just the high end places.
And thanks for the reminder of Lee Valley, I need to order some new rules.

[Frank Pellow]

Exactly my point. Speaking as a beginner (not that I am), "who is Lee Valley, who is Incra, who is Jointech, who is Starrett". You build a quality devise and market it in the common areas not just the high end places.

In the United States, Lee Valley markets in a very common area; that is via the mail and via the internet. They are also present at most Woodworking Shows and most Gardening shows.

In Canada, they also have stores in large urban centres across the country.