What Is The Most Difficult Power Tool In The Wood Working Shop?

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Dan,
People talk a lot of crap about safety!
They preach the "rules" like they personally received them from God.
They ignore the facts!
Safety is complicated, it's not about following some rules, it's about knowledge and experiences and calculations and margins and confidence and focus, it is far more the following some BS.

If you study wood and your understand it you know what you to expect from it.
If you study cutting tools and understand the relationship with the materials,
If you study machinery and understand it, then you know what you are doing and that knowledge gives you the confidence to analyze the variables of a situation and make judgements.

If you don't do those things and just blindly follow rules you will get hurt!

Living is dangerous, we all have to deal with danger, every day in everything, making judgements and having margins is how we survive.
You will never be safe, while you are alive.
So we live with a margin of safety, that is personal! it is personal safety, based on what you know and understand and can deal with.
It is never guarantied 100% never! You cannot predict everything, but the more you know the better decisions you can make for your safety.
Don't ever rely on someone else for your safety, learn enough to make your own choices.

Some Facts;
I have worked over 50 years, dressed tens of thousands of board feet of lumber over 24" jointers, 18" table saw blades' I have never had a guard on my jointer, never had a splitter of guard on the table-saw, I have worked long hours, all through the night, 24 hours round the clock, 44 hours one weekend, because I had to get a job done. The only injury that I have had is when the router speed control failed. I have used dozens or metalwork machines, lathes, bandsaws, tool and cutter grinders, surface grinders.

If you were to remove your preconceived ideas of safety, and faced the reality, I am probably one of the most safety conscious people on the planet. I have studied and understood the tools, materials and process, I have successfully calculated margins and developed procedures and left enough of a margin to keep me safe for 50 + plus years.

Those are Facts!

The problem is nobody cares about the facts!

Mark, having seen some of your machinery restoration, I have quite a lot of respect for your work - it's work I know I don't have the skill to do, and I admire it. If you'd be willing to take the time to explain what you're finding disagreeable, I'm sure I'd be far from the only person interested in learning from you. From your replies, I'm not sure what your disagreement is.

[Jerry Bruette]

Hi Dan,
People talk a lot of crap about safety!
They preach the "rules" like they personally received them from God.
They ignore the facts!
Safety is complicated, it's not about following some rules, it's about knowledge and experiences and calculations and margins and confidence and focus, it is far more the following some BS.

If you study wood and your understand it you know what you to expect from it.
If you study cutting tools and understand the relationship with the materials,
If you study machinery and understand it, then you know what you are doing and that knowledge gives you the confidence to analyze the variables of a situation and make judgements.

If you don't do those things and just blindly follow rules you will get hurt!

Living is dangerous, we all have to deal with danger, every day in everything, making judgements and having margins is how we survive.
You will never be safe, while you are alive.
So we live with a margin of safety, that is personal! it is personal safety, based on what you know and understand and can deal with.
It is never guarantied 100% never! You cannot predict everything, but the more you know the better decisions you can make for your safety.
Don't ever rely on someone else for your safety, learn enough to make your own choices.

Some Facts;
I have worked over 50 years, dressed tens of thousands of board feet of lumber over 24" jointers, 18" table saw blades' I have never had a guard on my jointer, never had a splitter of guard on the table-saw, I have worked long hours, all through the night, 24 hours round the clock, 44 hours one weekend, because I had to get a job done. The only injury that I have had is when the router speed control failed. I have used dozens or metalwork machines, lathes, bandsaws, tool and cutter grinders, surface grinders.

If you were to remove your preconceived ideas of safety, and faced the reality, I am probably one of the most safety conscious people on the planet. I have studied and understood the tools, materials and process, I have successfully calculated margins and developed procedures and left enough of a margin to keep me safe for 50 + plus years.

Those are Facts!

The problem is nobody cares about the facts!

Kept my nose out of this conversation until now.

Would you care to tell Dan exactly how you were using that router when it bit you?

[andy bessette]

Listing a bunch of stupid things that people do that have nothing to do with the topic is simple trying to manipulate the conversation. Wall switches, Isocyanate, safety boots, welding, motor cycles...and the classic... seat belts Wow! amazing sh*t it's all just BS.

If you want to talk about shop safety, lets talk Facts about shop safety not BS...

This. It is baloney.

[andrew whicker]

Per Sawmill's everlasting Safety discussion novellas, 'difficult' somehow became 'safe'. Anywho...

Woodworking: I'd agree with router. They are super picky on grain direction and cutting direction. I have a hard time creating finish quality surfaces.

Construction: I can have a hard time with quality difficult cuts with a worm drive circular saw (beveled).

Metal: Probably a cutting disc on an angle grinder. Have to be careful which quadrant you're cutting with.


The most difficult OVERALL TOOLS are handheld / powerless tools. Hand planes, chisels, saws, etc.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Jerry,
Sure I will explain, but Dan probable already knows as I posted before.

First thing is that I wasn't actually using it when it "bit me." I was going to use it.
I was getting ready to do some tool post grinding as I have done many times in the past.
I do both internal and external grinding. with different size grinding wheels and the router speed set to suit the wheel and the job.
I had the router mounted in a custom made- bracket and bolted to the cross-slide on my metal lathe.
I was going to do some "tool-post grinding" and had a grinding wheel mounted in the router collet.
I set the dial on the router to the slowest speed #1 on the dial. 8,000 rpm. Turned the router on, The router ran smoothly at that speed and I sorted a few parts on the bench next to the lathe while the router warmed up as I usually do.
The router speed violently, loudly and without warning shot up to 24,000 rpm causing the grinding wheel to explode, Startled by the noise, I turned toward the router and a chunk of grinding wheel went through my face.

I use routers for machining wood, Aluminum Brass, Copper, Steel, Cast iron, Stainless steel, Fibre-Glass, Plexi-glass, hardboard, mdf, plywood, Plastic laminate, rubber sheet, etc. and when I worked in a counter-top shop we routed solid surface Corian counters all day long. And there are probably a bunch of other products that i can't think of at this moment.

Of all the internal and external tool-post grinding is by fare the most delicate on the router as it is used only for polishing a few tenths off.
Below is an example of ID grinding and brass routing.

If you have any more questions or comments, I would love to hear them.

SAM_4764.jpg SAM_4765.jpg PXL_20210112_233834539.jpgPXL_20210113_183434856.jpgPXL_20210113_191151903.jpg

Kept my nose out of this conversation until now.

Would you care to tell Dan exactly how you were using that router when it bit you?

[Jerry Bruette]

What was the RPM rating of the wheel you were using.

Did you take legal action against Makita?

[Curt Harms]

I have a saw blade that fits a small grinder too. I tried it for cutting off cantilever floor joists that protruded from a house to create a balcony. I hope to never use it again. I have wondered about the chainsaw tooth carving wheels for a grinder. A coworker who is a skilled sculptor developed carpal tunnel and had to quit with the chisels and mallet. I showed him my grinder and catalogue images of the carving discs. His response "No way man!"

Attachment 488688

Lately I use a multitool when have to cut things like protruding floor joists.

How difficult was it to control? That was my concern when I first saw pics - I've never used one. At the time there was a disc with a number of curved ridges which looked like it would be easier to control. I just did an Amazon search and didn't see it. I saw a bunch of discs but they looked pretty aggressive/difficult to control as well.

[Karl Loeblein]

Maurice,
I belong to Nova Labs, a maker space here in northern Virginia. They have a great system. In order to use a machine, you have to take a safety and skills class. Every member carry’s a proximity fob that they use to turn machines on. It won’t work on machines unless you have taken the class and gotten signed off. I only belong for the two 100w laser engravers so I can’t use their bandsaw even though it’s the same brand and model as mine.

Roger, can you share anything more about the proximity fob like make/model and how it’s wired into the equipment? Also, can someone with training still get seriously hurt and then try to sue the club’s leaders for negligence? I’d like to open a makers space when I retire for woodworkers, but worry that someone could sue the LLC leaders (me) and get to my retirement savings.

[Mark Hennebury]

1. I am not sure what the rpm of the wheel was.
2. Yes.

Makita has the grinding wheel and router.

What was the RPM rating of the wheel you were using.

Did you take legal action against Makita?

[Greg Funk]

Roger, can you share anything more about the proximity fob like make/model and how it’s wired into the equipment? Also, can someone with training still get seriously hurt and then try to sue the club’s leaders for negligence? I’d like to open a makers space when I retire for woodworkers, but worry that someone could sue the LLC leaders (me) and get to my retirement savings.

Yes they can sue you for negligence. Whether they'd win is another question. You would be wise to carry liability insurance.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks for the reply, Mark.

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge. But at the same time, there are physicians working 24hr shifts, even when evidence would clearly show the dangers of that, so there must be some different calculus going on, there.

I'm still not sure what the disagreement is, though. Your posts about your grinder accident have caused me to appreciate the risk of grinders in a way I hadn't considered, before - I am much more cognizant about wearing a full-face shield, now, directly as a result of the education you provided. Not to speak for him, but that's how I read Steve's post, as well - that it's much easier to learn to appreciate that danger via education vs experience.

[Edwin Santos]

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge.

Hi Dan,
I don't have a dog in any safety argument going on here and I am not pointing my comments at anyone in particular, but I think you touched on something very important that we don't talk about a lot, namely the effect of fatigue.

I used to work in a hospital, and one of the pulmonary physicians was a sleep expert. One day he was telling me that functional MRI has revealed that sleep deprivation (or simply fatigue) has essentially the same effect on the brain as intoxication.
Of course, there are varying degrees i.e being heavily intoxicated is not the same as being mildly fatigued. However according to Dr. M, being mildly fatigued is comparable to being mildly intoxicated. The point being that working with dangerous tools when fatigued is not a whole lot different than working with dangerous tools when drinking, which I know we all agree is reckless even for the most experienced among us.

So I am a big advocate of putting the tools down when you realize you are tired, and even setting limits. I know woodworkers who will not work after a certain hour for this reason. One artisan woodworker mentor will not set tight delivery deadlines because he believes the pressure invariably translates to a safety hazard in his shop. This could translate to other impairments to state of mind. For example, another accomplished woodworker I know suffered the death of her spouse, and made a difficult decision to stay out of the shop for about six weeks simply because her state of mind itself was a safety hazard and she knew she could not fully concentrate. I really respected her for that. Has anyone besides me ever gotten so frustrated with something that was going wrong that it proved better to put the tools down and come back later with a cooler head?

And I don't believe any level of experience or expertise blunts the fatigue effect. An impairment is still happening. Self assessment is very important.
I would go so far as to say this is a more important issue than table saw vs. RAS, Sawstop, guard or no guard, splitter or no splitter, etc.

Respectfully, Edwin

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Dan,

Thank you.

We can all learn from others experience. This is an oft quoted phrase, but generally meant to imply, learning from some else's mistakes, not from how someone else has avoided mistakes.

I like facts; I quoted facts about how I have worked, how long and the results. No one has asked how did you manage to avoid injury. They don't ever in these discussions, they just dismiss your 50 years experience, call you reckless, ignorant, lazy, overconfident and apparently astronomically lucky.

If you want some reality ask how many people on this site have had accidents on their jointer with or without a functioning blade guard? See what the results are.

If you want to see how many people get injured with routers using standard router bits, do a google search. Lots of nasty accidents.

Just for fun ask who has the most table-saw accidents, my guess is Sawstop owners. Of course they don't care because they don't get hurt. But it should tell you something about people and their approach to safety being directly related to the perceived threat.

Thanks for the reply, Mark.

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge. But at the same time, there are physicians working 24hr shifts, even when evidence would clearly show the dangers of that, so there must be some different calculus going on, there.

I'm still not sure what the disagreement is, though. Your posts about your grinder accident have caused me to appreciate the risk of grinders in a way I hadn't considered, before - I am much more cognizant about wearing a full-face shield, now, directly as a result of the education you provided. Not to speak for him, but that's how I read Steve's post, as well - that it's much easier to learn to appreciate that danger via education vs experience.

[Jeff Roltgen]

"Most difficult power tool"
In my shop: Edgebander. I realize most hobbyists don't venture into that territory, but in terms of complexity and completing numerous operations simultaneously, it is absolute chaos.

- Heat/apply appropriate amount of glue. Is the glue pot clean? Are you using the right type of glue? Is the applicator clean and dispensing the proper amount of glue?
- Conveyor / pressure roller: adjusted to right height for stock? Roller clean and applying enough pressure?
-End trimmer - cutting flush? Too soon? (rip off, try again), Too late? (manually trim flush)
- edge trimmers - sharp? Cutting clean? Set to right depth of cut and tweaked for thickness of edge banding being applied?
- Buffers - running at all? Reservoir filled with proper solvent? Buffing wheels in good shape?

Fuss, fuss, fuss.

It's a machine that's expected to push out a ready to assemble, perfectly clean, dressed edge. Can take hours or even days to bring a neglected machine back to life. Cheap, entry level units like mine, ($10k retail) can just barely do it, and seem to throw twists/hiccups regardless how much care/prep went into setup for the run. No, I don't want to do enough edge banding to justify a new $35-$75,000 machine, so I'm stuck doing an hour or two of manual clean-up/dressing of "completed" parts every time. But you can't be in business without one.
No other machine in the building gives me as much cussing grief as the edge bander.

The definition of difficult.

As for the safety debate, perhaps a new thread is in order.

Safety is not synonymous with difficult, IMHO.

jeff

[Jerry Bruette]

1. I am not sure what the rpm of the wheel was.
2. Yes.

Makita has the grinding wheel and router.

Did you not know the speed rating at the time of use or you're not sure because Makita has it and you can't verify?

Having pulled a few all nighters my self and knowing what I did to keep my head straight what are your methods?