What 10’ sliding saws should I consider?

[Aaron Inami]

If I have single phase 230V, in my garage, if a saw requires 460V 3 phase, is that something I can generate?

I have VFD's for my lathe and CNC, both converting to 3 phase 230V.

Phase Perfect has models that will upconvert 230V to 460V before doing the 3-phase conversion. It is, essentially, a step-up transformer on the single-phase 230V input. Just keep in mind that 460V is harder on capacitors. You really don't need 460V unless you're running something really huge like a 25HP motor.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If I have single phase 230V, in my garage, if a saw requires 460V 3 phase, is that something I can generate?

I have VFD's for my lathe and CNC, both converting to 3 phase 230V.

You can also do this downstream of the phase conversion with an actual step up transformer that is rated to the proper kVa for the load.

I have an RPC into a 3 phase sub panel (that powers all my machines except 1) and on one circuit I have 7.5 kVa 3 phase step up transformer that outputs 480v 3 phase for an industrial drill press I acquired that is 480v only. This is in my basement shop which is all tied to the same 200 amp single phase panel for the house.

Malcolm,

Just my opinion: You will get way more bang for the buck if you can find a suitable used industrial sliding saw close enough (that checks out properly upon inspection) and just budget the ~$3k or whatever it is for a Phase Perfect digital phase converter. Then you will always have the 3 phase capacity for any other 3 phase machines that come up down the road, of which there will likely be many and for much better prices than new or hobby grade single phase. You have the budget to get something like a Martin T71 / maybe T72 or nice condition/steel ways Altendorf F45 and the best digital phase conversion if you have a bit of time and bandwidth to look. Just my 2 cents.

[Ronald Blue]

There is an Altendorf F-45 in Jersey City NJ if it's still there for $5500. It's on FB and there is an SCMI SI 320 in Philadelphia for $2000 also FB. The group is Everything USED Woodworking Tools and Equipment.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Malcolm, don't worry about blade arbour sizing, you can have all your blades bored and add pin holes for about $20 each. I bored most of my blades when going from a cabinet saw to a slider.

Same for your dado stack, except price is higher due to the number of pieces.

All blade manufacturers make all their blades in whatever bore you want.

If you're going to use a dado you're going to need a saw with an overhead guard.

Good luck, have fun.......Regards, Rod.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you're going to use a dado you're going to need a saw with an overhead guard.

Why is it any more important to have an overhead guard with a dado than with a single blade?

[Jacques Gagnon]

Kevin,

I believe Rod’s comment relates to the fact that in many (most? all?) cases the dado precludes the use of the riving knife, hence the need for the overhead guard as a safety measure.

Rod will correct me if I have erred.

Jacques

[Kevin Jenness]

I see, thanks.

[Matthew Hills]

You can see someone with a Maksiwa at Dusty Lumber Co:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpVrjWV--gQ&t=143s

[Bill Dufour]

I would think the riving knife would be too tall for a smaller dado stack. Most dado sets are 1-2" smaller diameter then the saw blade they replace. If they were the same diameter the riving knife could stay but it would not provide any safety.
Bill D

[Aaron Inami]

Generally, the stock blade guards attach to the riving knife and are a pain to remove/re-attach for DADO blade purposes.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hi Malcom, I recently went through this myself and finally took delivery (I'll add more on that below). I put a tremendous amount of time into research and getting my hands on many of these machines. I am a 20yr professional woodworker, but was new to sliders and learned a lot, especially on this site. Most of the folks on here are going to say check out a used machine, and I checked out many...but a lot of that is going to come down to how much time and effort you want to put into a search and are you willing to do the work to get it and also work with any issues that may arise. If you are then there are opportunities to save a considerable amount or buy a machine for your budget that you would otherwise not have been able to afford. This can be a long an difficult task....took me about a year to finally make it happen. Now, if you're not on board with doing that and are only interested in a new machine then what are your best options at your budget....

Felder - Maybe the 500 line is approachable, but there's a better chance that once you outfit it, it will be over your budget (at least a little). So you're probably into the Hammer line, maybe you can get the K4 but that might also be slightly over budget. The k4 is the only one of the Hammer line that will be offered in a full length slider. The k4 is basically a 500 without the X-Roll. Both are a fine machine and can do most of what you will ever need. The main difference with stepping up to higher levels is going to be available accessories and heft of build. Those are things that need addressing early on to see if it will accommodate your needs both now and at least the foreseeable future.

I got my hands on multiple machines, from Hammer all the way up to Format 4. And was able to see a lot of the features and shortcomings of each. None of them is perfect, but the further up the line you go the more you get (though not always commensurate with the price increase). Accessories from Felder are not cheap, if you have the time to wait or attempt to negotiate you should wait until a sale or the like and can save a significant amount. They have a lot of accessories and their product info on those is not great regardless of how good the product itself is. I have found them to be a more highly engineered product to most of the competition, but that is not necessarily a good thing when it comes to self or outsourced service. Their tech support is pretty good on the phone, but I have heard it is extremely expensive for in person tech unless you are close to HQ. Their sales.....difficult would be the right word. I was very happy with my salesmen and like them, but not necessarily the way their operations run, I'll leave it at that.

SCM - You're probably looking at the SC4 at this price point. I don't know if you can get a 315 machine at your budget. The main difference I have seen with SCM vs Felder (which are the 2 biggest names in the US probably) is that the SCM seems simpler built, which can be a good thing, and sometimes the steel seems a little heavier than the comparable Felder. The SC level is really direct to both the hammer and 500 lines, and the 315 and Nova are more in line with the 700 machines.

I tried several machines and was almost set to buy 2 of them (both used), what changed my mind I can't say....They are built solid and seem like they will last forever. The motors appear to be more solid to me, but I don't have any real experience to say that short of my short visits. They don't seem to offer quite as many bells and whistles as Felder, but appear to make up for that with what I have heard to be great service (at least by comparison). That said, when I did make phone calls (not to Sam) they went unanswered....

Maksiwa - If you're looking at these I suggest the Titanium model (BMT) - This saw offers a lot for that 10k number and clicks just about all of your boxes. The short coming is of course it is a lesser known brand in the US, with unknown support, and it comes with a 2yr warranty. All that said, I did actually manage to track one of these down and play around with it for a while.....here's my take (and I'll do a post on this eventually) it's a solid saw. I was very impressed with the machine and it made my decision making process really difficult. I have to say it was probably the most quiet machine I have ever tried, I could barely hear it running in a relatively quiet shop. There was no vibration either through the machine which said a lot considering any other machine I tried including Altendorf I could always feel something (mind you small). The slide was incredibly smooth, and it comes with a ton of features that you have to pay a lot more for through other brands. The BMT is made in Taiwan the black model is China. It has a DRO on the rip fence that worked perfectly. The only shortcoming I could really find and was told by the staff at that shop, was the overhead guard. It wasn't it's use, it was that it was always getting clogged. Now I can't say why that was maybe a design flaw or maybe it was also part of their duct design. I don't see how it could really be the case. I spoke with their rep Viktor several times and he was very nice an informative, but I cannot say anything about service or support with the exception that the shop I tested it had it in service for 2 years and has had no issues. For 10k, there's a little risk involved, but as a machine it felt like great bang for the buck.

Cantek & Laguna - These are also Taiwan machines I believe and I think you can throw the Rikon in this mix too. They seem decent, probably on par with the Maksiwa machine in terms of built (possibly even made in the same factories) but I wasn't able to track one down to try or get my hands on.

Altendorf - The f45 is of course a great machine and workhorse. If you can get a used one in great shape that came from a small shop then you might find a decent deal. But you'll still probably be looking at a 20yr old machine in the 10k range maybe more. I tried several and almost bought one. They are all 3 phase so you are going to have to get a convertor....more $. They and Martin are more or less the tops...you can't afford a new Martin either and will be looking even older probably for the money. These are true industrial level machines, and to be honest outside of heft of build and maybe that goes for the motor too, they're not going to offer you much more.

Lastly would be Robland - You can find good deals on these used and I have head that they are very decent machines. Low and mid models are definitely comparable with much of the above...their higher end stuff is probably pretty nice, but again outside the pay grade. I did manage to get my hands on 1 and it was nice, nothing stood out to me as either great or of concern.

1ph vs 3ph - This can only be answered with the question of where do you see your shop going and what do you see yourself ever needing. For me I had no foreseeable need of another machine that would require 3ph. I don't have room for a wide belt or a large CNC and already have a 16" J/P so made sense to stay single phase. Single phase will also hold its value much better than 3ph if you sell down the line. But don't discount the possibility that you might still need a little electric work to support the new machine...you may you may not.

What did I do??? Well, I was on the fence on several used machines and couldn't commit for one reason or another. The Maksiwa was always on my mind as clicking more boxes and being brand new with some warranty. But then another used machine came along (which belonged to a member here I believe) a Felder K700S that was being offered used (2019) direct from Felder. It was either that or a really good deal on the top of the line K3 new. After going back and forth many times to nail down all the details I went for it. When it arrived it looked virtually new and I have been very happy so far. I hope it stays that way, but I can tell you it is a very capable machine with very few shortcomings far as I can tell so far. I had it delivered and set it up. I think I finally have it pretty set, but we'll see. It is single phase which puts it only at 4hp (That's Felder's single phase motor). That said I was going from a 3hp cabinet saw and figured, hey it's still more power and I hardly ever needed more before. I'm still learning and running it through its paces, but so far it's a good purchase.

At the end of the day, I have a feeling that if you have accessed your needs correctly, you won't be unhappy with any of these machines. The biggest thing is getting the features you feel are important to you, and just because it might not come stock with them or even offered by the manufacturer, doesn't mean you can't get something that covers that need or have it made. I'm sure over time some will prove more reliable than others but if you don't abuse the machine you'll probably**** have less issues than otherwise.

I'd be more than happy to discuss in more details my experience, if you or anyone is interested drop me a PM and we can plan a call.

[Jared Sankovich]

There is an Altendorf F-45 in Jersey City NJ if it's still there for $5500. It's on FB and there is an SCMI SI 320 in Philadelphia for $2000 also FB. The group is Everything USED Woodworking Tools and Equipment.

That scmi is broken and that Altendorf is one of the ones with phenolic ways.

[Ronald Blue]

That scmi is broken and that Altendorf is one of the ones with phenolic ways.

That would explain why the SCMI seemed to good to be true. I didn't research it so wasn't aware of that. So the F-45 is one to steer clear of?

[Steve Jenkins]

I have an F45 that I bought new in 1992. It has phenolic ways. They have never given me any problems but I’m a full time mostly one man shop and take very good care of my machines.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The way I understand it is when the phenolic wears unevenly / wears beyond tolerance that replacement is difficult / expensive / perhaps not practically feasible. I think they are fine saws if the ways are still within spec and not worn unevenly or too much, which is entirely likely and possible with a one man shop saw owned from new.

There is obviously a large risk factor when buying one of these 25-30 yr old + Altendorfs that may be worn beyond spec and seems like the only way to really know that is to check in person, which unless local, can be a monumental waste of time.

I don’t know what year the phenolic ways started but I think they went to steel sometimes in the late 90s, from what I have seen, though I am not an Altendorf expert by any stretch.