Screws into ash end grain??

[Fred Voorhees]

Hi guys. Haven't posted on this forum in many ages. I am starting a loft bed project for my granddaughter and have a question. I have purchased the typical bed frame rail attachment hardware that require you to route out the recesses in the posts to accept the mating hardware on the rail end grains. My concern is screwing the rail hardware into the end grain and will it hold competently? I am using all ash for the build and obviously ash is a heavy, dense wood, leading me to believe its dense enough to firmly hold onto a screw. I saw somewhere where it was mentioned to maybe sink dowels at the screw locations but most of them are oriented where I would still be screwing into end grain. I have plug cutters to enable me to cut plugs in the right orientation, but again, is that necessary with ash? And in either scenario....course thread or fine, but obviously with a judiciously chosen pilot hole. Thanks for all input.

[Darrell Bade]

Last bed I built the plans I used said to drill a hole for a dowel from top to bottom on the side rails so the frame attachment could screw into it (not engrain if done this way). I didn't do that step and so far after 6 years all is well just screwed into endgrain, always wonder if I'll regret that decision someday though.

[Jamie Buxton]

It is true: screws into end grain don't hold as well as in to face grain. Notice the "as well" in the middle? Use longer screws.

[Michael Burnside]

I would recommend a dowel. I've heard some people use an epoxy filled pilot, but screwing into end-grain just feels wrong to me for anything I want to last. Given that it's a child's bed, I'm not sure I'd take a shortcut, but that's me.

[Cameron Wood]

I built a bed frame with knock-down hardware like that & screws into end grain in the '70s. It is still in use and doing fine.

[Jim Morgan]

If this is something that will be disassembled and reassembled, you might use cross dowels, a/k/a barrel nuts.

[Rob Luter]

There are a couple tricks that will help your situation.

1) Longer Screws
2) Drill a pilot hole nearly the full depth of the screw at a diameter slightly smaller than the minor diameter of the screw thread. Inject slow set CA glue into the hole such that it saturates the wood for the full depth. It will soak in. Let it cure a day. This increases the strength of the wood fibers immensely. I've used this trick for tapping screw threads in end grain and it really works well.

[Jim Becker]

Fred, if you insert the dowels into the sides of the rails so they line up with the positions that screws enter from the end of the boards, they will provide good support for the screws. Drill the recesses from the inside (non-show) side of the rails and don't drill all the way through. You don't really need to cut your own plugs...just buy some hardwood dowel material. If you feel you need them hidden, install the dowels and once the glue is set, use a forstner bit to cut a recess for matching side-grain plugs.

[Kent A Bathurst]

...Inject slow set CA glue into the hole such that it saturates the wood for the full depth. It will soak in. Let it cure a day...

How in the heck is it that I never thought of this?

...... use a forstner bit to cut a recess for matching side-grain plugs.......

And even worse - never thought of THIS!!

[John TenEyck]

Most bed rail hardware I've seen has a plate that is mortised into the end of the rail. The screws only hold the plate tight into the mortise. It's the mortise that carries the vertical load; the screws only serve to keep the plate in the mortise under racking loads. I've never seen a cross dowel on old bed rails that I've looked at, though adding one would definitely make for a stronger joint.

John

[Michael Burnside]

Most bed rail hardware I've seen has a plate that is mortised into the end of the rail. The screws only hold the plate tight into the mortise. It's the mortise that carries the vertical load; the screws only serve to keep the plate in the mortise under racking loads. I've never seen a cross dowel on old bed rails that I've looked at, though adding one would definitely make for a stronger joint.

John

You're right John, in terms of supporting the load. But for racking the screws hold the bedrail clip tight to the board, screwed into end-grain. What I don't understand is that the fix is ridiculously simple and adds a meaningful amount of strength. Crap, you can even use contrasting wood and drill from the outside and up the level on the workpiece. If you're already mortising, which takes a lot more time/effort, even if you use a Forstner bit. Just line up the screw holes that hold the clip, flip the board on it's side and drill two 3/8"-1/2" dowel holes 80% of the way through. Then, when you screw in the clips, they'll bite into the dowel. It's literally 10-20 minutes of work and, again, is a meaningful amount of strength.

[Tom Levy]

We've got some 80's era "This end up" furniture that used to be my bed when I was a kid. All 2x4 and 2x6 construction with older, straight/tight grain lumber. Bunk beds were secured by two lag bolts on each side of each bed rail through the ends. 1/4 by maybe 4 inches long, no other hardware involved in the joint. Still holding strong and tight after ~ 40 years.

[Lee Schierer]

Instead of the cheap ordinary plated wood screws, use some Spax screws for greater tensile strength and longer threads. You would still want to drill a pilot hole in the end grain.

[James Jayko]

I've built half a dozen beds with the same hardware, screwed directly into end grain, with no issues. The forces at play here aren't really in the direction that would make it a real problem (ie. if the force was pulling on the screw, you'd be far more likely to have a problem than when the design of the hardware transfers all the weight to the head/footboard).

That said, swapping in a good 2" screw or something would be a great belt and suspenders here.

[Fred Voorhees]

Thanks everyone. I have taken each responce seriously and thank everyone for chipping in. The dowel idea will be an easy one. However, I think I will drill in from the exposed faces of the rail boards to a bit past the screw location and use walnut dowels. It will add a little contrast to the ash and a touch of interest. It also jives with a very small amount of walnut I planned on using on the vertical corner posts up near the top. Will more than likely also go with the spax screws if I can find one that will recess into the hardware nicely. Thanks again guys.