I got this in the 1980s, and used it so much that the roller wore down to where the nuts holding the roller hit the stone.
Don't use it much lately- maybe I'm getting the hang of sharpening...
IMG_4476.jpeg
Contributor
I got this in the 1980s, and used it so much that the roller wore down to where the nuts holding the roller hit the stone.
Don't use it much lately- maybe I'm getting the hang of sharpening...
IMG_4476.jpeg
Contributor
Further complicating the matter - there are far more woodworking tools sold than used. Lots of people buy the jigs and some stones, few end up using them extensively. Even fewer have spent enough time woodworking that they learn to sharpen by hand.
As a rookie, I’ve found that hollow grinding really does help me tell when the angle is off on water stones.
Member
Hollow grinding is really the only way to get good feedback on the angle.
Member
For me, it is one of the 'blessing and/or curse' situations. I have to experiment, far more than most. There are very simple solutions some times, and much more complex solutions some times to get to the same place...... I do like a hollow grind to 'simplify' things. I still have not made my mind up about Rob Cosman's '30 seconds to sharp' solution. I can still see 1000 grit scratches. Rob does not use the 30,000 grit Shapton stone any more because he didn't consider it enough of a step up to be worth the effort.
One thing I am curious about, and this does diverge a bit from this thread, but with the Japanese plane irons, do they use a micro bevel? I guess the same question would apply to the bench chisels. I can't remember seeing any one put the micro bevel on that style of plane irons.
robo hippy
Contributor
Japanese irons and chisels are normally sharpened as one huge flat bevel, but you can sharpen them in whatever way you want as long as the edge angle is appropriate.
For most things I try to hone as small of a bevel as possible, but I do sharpen Japanese tools in the traditional way. Mainly because I like the way it looks, honestly. With that huge bevel you'd think it would be easy to sharpen in terms of keeping the angle correct, but since most of the bevel is soft iron or steel and the tip is super hard, you have to bias all of the pressure towards the tip, to the point you are on the verge of tipping it up and creating a secondary bevel, but not quite. If you don't, the soft iron/steel will wear away faster and the bevel angle will gradually get lower, and then it starts chipping in use. You will also get a lot of unwanted "feedback" if you have much pressure on the soft area of the bevel- it can get very grabby especially with larger irons and with softer stones. Shapton 5k is the worst about this...if you can sharpen a big plane iron on one of those without it grabbing and without tipping it up, then you have just the right pressure.
I normally sharpen everything these days with Arkansas stones, which are very hard and slick, especially the Translucent I finish with. And except for mortice chisels and japanese blades I just sharpen a tiny secondary bevel. I don't hollow grind- I just grind a flat primary bevel at 20 degrees and then a secondary at about 30. Nothing to register on, so you just have to hold it at the right angle. Pretty much like sharpening a pocket knife, except easier because there's no need to flip back and forth and no curve to follow. I suppose I rely on muscle memory mostly, but even with hard stones and a tiny bevel you can steel get a sensation of when the angle is right.
[OP]
Contributor
Yeah, and the 30,000 grit makes no sense on woodworking tools. You really need something around 62-63 HRC or more to take full advantage of something like 30,000 grit. We use softer steels, because a steel that hard will just chip like crazy, even on soft wood. And the softer steels we do use won't be hard enough to maintain such a sharp point as created by a 30,000 grit stone, nor be able to maintain that sharpness past have a swipe through wood. Probably 6k, maybe 10k is the max you'll want to go. That might even be pushing it. I usually stop at about 3k and sometimes a strop, and that's enough to shave with, which is more than I need for woodworking.Originally Posted by Reed Gray
You can use a micro bevel if you want on any blade. There's no right or wrong way to do it. The advantage is it holds an edge longer and reduces the time spent sharpening. The disadvantage is it will eventually require you to regrind your edge. Or, if you sharpen your primary bevel every time along with your secondary, micro bevel, you can avoid having to regrind the edge, but you don't save any time spent sharpening. In fact, you increase your amount of time. Also, a micro bevel, while it holds an edge longer, isn't as sharp as a single bevel.
Personally, I use the single bevel method for most everything. The only thing I put secondary bevels on are mortising chisels, because they take a lot more abuse and benefit from that durability. Everything else, I prefer the increased sharpness of the single bevel. But as long as you're satisfied with the results, then you're doing it right.
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This is my approach as well, although I just use a single 30 degree on mortising chisels.
Reed, from what I've read, most do not incorporate a secondary (micro) bevel and rely on a single, sharp bevel. IMO, this is what these blades were designed for, of course others will disagree.
Member
I'll never understand why there's such a need to try to convert people to sharpening freehand. I've already bought the jig, it works great, so why not use it? I mean, if sharpening free hand, is your hobby, that's fine, but why the need to put down people that use jigs? My hobby is working wood, not sharpening.
Member
Because sharpening is like religion. People tend to think their way is the only correct way. Every sharpening thread devolves into that.
Contributor
I fail to see any of the previous posts as trying to convert anybody. That's a new one, free hand sharpening is a hobby, serious hobby woodworkers use honing jigs. I can see some of the pot calling the kettle black attitude there.
Member
I have been pondering the ' no need to go beyond 10000 grit' idea. I have found that with the 16000 grit stone, there is no detectable burr left on my chisels or plane irons.
As for sharpening, I think the saying "ask 10 people the same question and you will get at least a dozen different answers' still holds true....
robo hippy
Member
A prime example of what I mean. Sometimes this place stinks. Definitely time to leave. No one said what you just did.
Contributor
Just about everyone who posted in this thread basically said the same thing, do what suits you best.
All anyone can offer is there own experience.
This has been one of, if not the most civil sharpening threads I've read, do ruin it.
[OP]
Contributor
To everyone: What works for you, works for you. Good enough is indeed, good enough. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything different. I'm not selling anything, so I have nothing to gain by converting anyone. The whole point of this thread is to think aloud about some of the reasons why we choose the paths we choose. I just wanted to express my thoughts and hear some thoughts of others. You'll never learn anything new if all you ever hear is your own thoughts reflected back at you.
The idea is, as some point you're going to get it as sharp as it can possibly be, and going to a higher grit just slows down the removal of material. Too high of a grit will still sharpen, it'll just take longer. It still sharpens though.
Imagine grinding an edge onto a concrete slab. At some point, you're not going to get a pointier edge because you're just going to chip off concrete from the edge you've created. The structure of the concrete will only allow it to get so thin before it's not strong enough to support the act of grinding. Metals are similar, only on a microscopic scale.
Now, I'll often (though not always) strop with that green polishing compound, which is what? 60,000 grit? In theory, it's a waste of time. But my highest normal grit that I use is 3,000. And I definitely notice that I can get it a little bit sharper by jumping to the 60k grit polishing compound. Still, that's a HUGE jump. And in theory, it's both too far of a jump and too high of grit to be effective and efficient. But, it being polishing compound on a soft leather strop, I don't need to perfectly angle the blade, so I can do 30-40 swipes really quickly and get the same edge in the end as I would if I went from 3,000 to 5,000 and then to 10,000 grit with two more stones. And I can probably do it in less time with the strop, and still get to the same edge. So it could be seen a technically wrong, but it works for me. Then again, it might get me to the same spot as a single 8k stone would, and with even more time savings. I haven't experimented with that yet, and don't plan to anytime soon.
The difference between 16k and 10k isn't huge. And depending on the steel, it may actually have a benefit. That PMV-11 steel has a finer crystalline structure, so it'll benefit from a finer grit and hold a finer edge than O-1 or A-2. How much finer? I don't know. And you've got different tempering procedures and stuff, so it can be hard to draw definitive conclusions based on theory alone. Whatever works, works. And you have to factor in the step before your 16k stone. If you're previous stone before that is 12k, then you might not be benefitting from the last stone. You'd have to experiment and see. Or maybe your penultimate stone is a 1k stone. In which case you might be able to save time and still get the same level of sharpness in the end by switching the 16k for a 6k stone, again, depending on the steel. There's a lot of factors to consider, not the least of which is technique, and the only way to know for sure is to try.
These are just theories to consider. They're not hard and fast "rules". Besides, no one is going to look at that table you made and say "wow, your plane iron sharpening skills are beyond reproach!" The process only matters to us. It's only the wood that matters to the world.
Contributor
Some things I can sharpen freehand and do a pretty decent job. After learning on various guides (all of which I still have).
Some things I still cant get sharp without a guide. A basic chisel touch up, sure. Resetting the entire angle I still prefer a guide.
Recently I picked up a cheapie Ruixin contraption for kitchen knives. It worked great and my kitchen knives are as sharp as they have ever been (I dont seem to be able to get the same stroke pattern on both sides of a knife - pulling towards me vs pushing away...)
My conclusion is, I am just not that good at it and have not spent enough time mastering the art. And am ok with that.
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