Slider question

[Todd Zucker]

I am looking at a Hammer B3 saw/shaper. IÂ’ve avoided getting a table saw and have worked with a track saw, band saw and hand tools for years, which has worked well. I have a fully equipped Jessem router table and a bench top mortiser. But I recently bought a nice used cabinet saw and am now having second thoughts about whether a slider might be a better fit for comfort and safety and space constraints.

The setup is a four car garage with two cars parked inside at night. I.e., space constrained at night, but during the day, I can spread everything out with plenty of room.

I mostly work with solid wood and build normal sized furniture. Any sheet goods will be rough ripped at the lumber shop or broken down with the track saw. I donÂ’t use the router table much but think I might want to move into cabinets and raised panel doors for one off projects. Maybe the table saw is better than a hand plane and hand saw for that?

I have a Hammer A3-31 and like the quality. I am thinking that the B3 with mobility kit might be more compact than the cabinet saw, and the shaper might replace the router table.

any thoughts?

[Aaron Inami]

What model B3 are you looking at? They have a range of models. The B3-Basic is the smallest and has a very short slider and limits your sliding cut to around 24-28" in length. Once you add in some Fritz-n-Franz jigs, your cutting length is reduced down lower (maybe 15-18"). This is still likely going to be safer than a normal cabinet saw if you use the slider properly. That being said, the real benefit of a slider is the ability to rip long cuts that are perfectly straight and square. This is difficult on a normal cabinet saw and you will also need some sort of out-feed table.

If you are critical on precision, you may want to do a slider alignment. In this case, you don't want the mobility kit on the saw because your shop floor is likely going to be uneven and slanted. The slant/uneven floor can cause the B3 cast iron top to have a twist. This will translate into a twisted slider operation. It's very difficult to move the saw back to the exact position on the floor where you did the alignment. Also, once you put leveling feet on the saw, the mobility kit becomes useless anyways. I would recommend that you choose a permanent location for a slider and then have all other machines moving around on mobile bases. Review this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s2a02XI3BQ

Felder definitely sells a router collet spindle for the B3 shaper:

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/shaper-spindles-sc91620/router-spindle-with-collet-chuck-sp1640032

But, you are going to be limited to 10,000 RPM. The Jessem router table will still work better and more efficient for smaller bits where you can run them at higher RPM. You can still choose to run router bits at 10,000 RPM on the shaper and cut slower.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I am looking at a Hammer B3 saw/shaper. IÂ’ve avoided getting a table saw and have worked with a track saw, band saw and hand tools for years, which has worked well. I have a fully equipped Jessem router table and a bench top mortiser. But I recently bought a nice used cabinet saw and am now having second thoughts about whether a slider might be a better fit for comfort and safety and space constraints.

The setup is a four car garage with two cars parked inside at night. I.e., space constrained at night, but during the day, I can spread everything out with plenty of room.

I mostly work with solid wood and build normal sized furniture. Any sheet goods will be rough ripped at the lumber shop or broken down with the track saw. I donÂ’t use the router table much but think I might want to move into cabinets and raised panel doors for one off projects. Maybe the table saw is better than a hand plane and hand saw for that?

I have a Hammer A3-31 and like the quality. I am thinking that the B3 with mobility kit might be more compact than the cabinet saw, and the shaper might replace the router table.

any thoughts?

When you say, "better", what does that infer?
Do you do woodworking as a way to unwind or do you do it as a way to put bread on the table?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Todd

I have a K3 with a 1250 (49") slider, and it meets my needs very well. I really do not hanker after a longer slider. I like that its compactness in the limited space I have (half a double garage). I build one-off pieces of furniture, only work with solid wood and do not need to cut down sheets (I could use a track saw if so needed). The 1250 (actually cuts 1350) is home to a parallel guide for ripping, and the cross-cut fence is not only accurate, but will manage pretty wide panels.



Parallel Guide and the "short" slider ...





Sawing tapers on a different type of parallel guide ...


And if you need, the K3 converts into a traditional table saw with rip fence ...



There is a router table built into the outfeed. Again a space saver. The B3 might do this for you as well.



Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

I work primarily in solid stock, although I will admit that there have been a few more projects lately that used sheet stock because of setting up the new shop, etc. I've been a slider user since the mid-2000s. It was downright painful to me when I was using a cabinet saw in the temporary gara-shop last year before my new shop building was up here at our new property. It was a great saw (PCS) but I was so used to the functionality and repeatability of the slider that it was...for me...a compromise. My new slider is a short stroke so when I do work with sheets, I use my tracksaw to do any long rips. Otherwise, all the processing gets done on the slider. I also very rarely use my miter saw because I leverage the slider for that work, too. The miter saw just gets rough stock break-down if necessary and "construction" tasks.

On the shaper vs router table, IMHO, they are complimentary and each has advantages. Even gaining the shaper with that B3, I wouldn't bag the router table. And as you note, mobility helps a lot when you have to use the space for something else. (I've never used a garage for vehicles outside of a week when I was preparing one for sale to a friend )

[Erik Loza]

Todd, I realize that you think you may not need a longer sliding table but that was the #1 regret I heard from buyers: “I should have bought a longer slider”. Your decision, of course.

Also, from a sales standpoint, the most aggressive discounts and promos were always on the B3 with “Comfort” package, which was 78” sliding table, outrigger (very useful), precision mitre index system, and probably a few things I’m forgetting. It’s been a couple of years but if memory serves, by the time you optioned-up a 48” B3 with the stuff the Comfort comes with, the price difference was a lot less than you might think. Just speaking from experience.

Since you seem to be located in Houston, would it be worth a drive to the Felder showroom in Carrollton? They should have at least one variant of a B3 or C3 on display. Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Jacques Gagnon]

Todd,

A few thoughts for your consideration.

I am looking at a Hammer B3 saw/shaper. IÂ’ve avoided getting a table saw and have worked with a track saw, band saw and hand tools for years, which has worked well. I have a fully equipped Jessem router table and a bench top mortiser. But I recently bought a nice used cabinet saw and am now having second thoughts about whether a slider might be a better fit for comfort and safety and space constraints.

The setup is a four car garage with two cars parked inside at night. I.e., space constrained at night, but during the day, I can spread everything out with plenty of room.

I mostly work with solid wood and build normal sized furniture. Any sheet goods will be rough ripped at the lumber shop or broken down with the track saw. I don’t use the router table much but think I might want to move into cabinets and raised panel doors for one off projects. Maybe the table saw is better than a hand plane and hand saw for that?
I have a Hammer A3-31 and like the quality. I am thinking that the B3 with mobility kit might be more compact than the cabinet saw, and the shaper might replace the router table.

any thoughts?

I moved from cabinet saw, 15 inch planer and 8 inch jointer to A3-31 and B3 machines in the fall of 2021. I also own a Jessem router table with has served me very well. Another fan of the A3-31 here.

The B3 actually requires a smaller footprint than my cabinet saw from a « width » perspective with the same space to the right of the blade. The « length » parameter is influenced by the size of the slider. In my case, I chose the 2 metre carriage and the space required for the saw « at rest » is similar to my old setup since there was a wooden support extending from the cast iron surface to support the plywood crosscutting sled. Essentially no significant difference here.

If you decide to go ahead with the B3, I recommend that you get the outrigger as part of your package. This has been a game changer for me. Easy and precise cuts, including easy squaring of parts (much more practical and less bulky than my old plywood crosscutting sled).

As for the router table, my original plan was to order the router spindle and then decide whether to keep the Jessem or not. A last minute change in the configuration of my machine resulted in my missing that the interchangeable spindle option had disappeared from my order.

As a hobbyist I had never worked with a shaper before. I am impressed by the results obtained with the shaper cutters when compared to trying the same operation on the router table. This is particularly the case with larger material. I still find the router table very useful for smaller components (e.g. jewelry boxes). I bought a power feeder which is nice from safety and work quality.

Regards,

Jacques

[Jacques Gagnon]

Erik,

…it looks like I was writing my comments at the same time as you.

My machine is the Comfort package and I echo the comment regarding the mitre index system.

Jacques

[Erik Loza]

Erik,

…it looks like I was writing my comments at the same time as you.

My machine is the Comfort package and I echo the comment regarding the mitre index system.

Jacques

Haha, no kidding Jacques. I took a fair number of “what does it cost to get the outrigger as an accessory” from existing owners. By the time we got the freight cost and lead time worked out, the customer was always like, “Umm… Let me get back to you”. Which is why I always encouraged folks to budget for it as part of the original build.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Haha, no kidding Jacques. I took a fair number of “what does it cost to get the outrigger as an accessory” from existing owners. By the time we got the freight cost and lead time worked out, the customer was always like, “Umm… Let me get back to you”. Which is why I always encouraged folks to budget for it as part of the original build.

Erik

The same reasoning goes into why I always suggest that folks looking at "that other brand" buy the standard package because there are a lot (make that "all") of essential things that are included and don't have to be optioned at higher costs. I a manufacturer is bringing in any pre-determined configurations/packages, that standard setup likely has some efficiencies in production that make for an attractive buy, even if there are one or two goodies that a specific person might not use very often or at all.

[Jacques Gagnon]

Erik and Jim,

I completely agree with you and including the shipping costs associated with an « after the fact » purchase, there are even more savings at play, not to mention lead time for such deliveries.

[Todd Zucker]

These are all very helpful insights. I have been looking at the B3 Comfort with 1250mm table and miter index and crosscut. Felder says this unit would be a special build, not something in stock in the US, and would take about 2 months. I will ask them if they have a standard configuration B3 with the longer table and the bells and whistles that is easier for them to sell at a good discount.

I might give some thought to driving to the showroom in Carrolton. I did that before buying the A3-31.

Giving the B3 a permanent location makes perfect sense and fortunately doesn't rule out a longer table. The garage is deep, and the machine should have plenty of room when idle, and I could move the cars and open the double doors at the rear of the garage to accommodate moving the table back and forth.

Rich, I think my real hobby has become rearranging tools in the garage instead of making furniture. The decision to finally buy a table saw was prompted by an unexpected opportunity to buy a really good one in good shape with accessories at a really decent price five miles from my house. It would have been ideal if I had done some homework and planning beforehand, but it seemed like the opportunity might disappear if I waited. The saw is impressive, but once I put it in the garage, it seemed like it had grown a couple of feet in every direction, and adding a permanent outfeed table might be problematic space wise. My "better fit" comment referred to space constraints and my lack of experience with a table saw of any kind, rather than insinuating that a slider is "better" than something else. Jim B's comment in an earlier thread about being in the "line of fire" until he got his slider back also resonated with me. Being inexperienced with a table saw and having some space constraints, it made me think a slider could be the "right fit."

If I go in this direction, it might end up being a "buy twice, sell once, cry once" scenario. Wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Derek Cohen]

Todd, I realize that you think you may not need a longer sliding table but that was the #1 regret I heard from buyers: “I should have bought a longer slider”. Your decision, of course.

Also, from a sales standpoint, the most aggressive discounts and promos were always on the B3 with “Comfort” package, which was 78” sliding table, outrigger (very useful), precision mitre index system, and probably a few things I’m forgetting. It’s been a couple of years but if memory serves, by the time you optioned-up a 48” B3 with the stuff the Comfort comes with, the price difference was a lot less than you might think. Just speaking from experience.

Since you seem to be located in Houston, would it be worth a drive to the Felder showroom in Carrollton? They should have at least one variant of a B3 or C3 on display. Good luck in your search.

Erik

Hi Erik

I wonder how many of these customers were working predominantly or exclusively with solid wood? I would absolutely agree with you if I used built from sheet goods and had the space for a long slider. In my work, I have no need for a longer slider (well .. very occasionally I might want about 12" more). Long boards benefit from being crosscut to approximate length - if you plan to joint and thickness them, shorter is always better in regard to saving stock thickness.

The point is that choice of slider length is not simply "bigger is better". Less can be more when saving space. The reason I write this is that prospective purchasers need to consider what they plan to use the machine to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jacques Gagnon]

Salut Derek,

You posed an interesting question. I understand the point that Erik is making about going for bigger if available and I agree with your statement about considering what one intends to do with the equipment. Given the limited space available in my small shop the choice was clear for me - longer (i.e. 8 feet and up) sliders were out of the question. This then brought the next question: which one of the three shorter carriages do I choose? I landed on the 2080mm slider because I felt that the projects I would work on would require components longer than 1300mm. I work with both solid wood and panels in a proportion of about 80 - 20 and panels are almost always broken down before landing on the slider. Like you (and probably every wood worker) I sometimes could use that « extra 12 inches » as was the case for two dining table projects that called for 2200mm and 2500mm components. I managed to get things done (two-part sled built with melamine coated panel held in place with wood cleat inserted in the slider groove).

With hindsight, had I chosen the 1300mm carriage would not have been the right choice and the 2080mm was the bigger (and better) option. But again, this reflects my needs and the limitations posed by my shop. I clearly sit in the camp of « « « what do you want to do and therefore what is best suited to your needs? ».

Regards,

Jacques

[Aaron Inami]

It's great that you are looking at the B3 Comfort at a minimum. The slider is 2050mm (6.6 feet). Keep in mind that you will lose about 10-15" once you put on clamps with the crosscut fence. What this translates to in reality is that your cutting length is going to be 65-70" (or about 5-1/2 feet). I know that you are going to trim down sheet goods with a track saw, but if your final material might possibly be longer than 5-1/2 feet, then I would recommend looking at the B3 Perform model. You need the sliding table saw to be able to make perfectly square cuts on sheet goods. This is difficult with a track saw. On larger material, a variance of .5 degrees is going to translate into a huge gap.

The B3 Perform is $1300 more, but it buys you this:
- machine weight goes from 880 lbs to 1255 lbs.
- machine steel base is much longer and provides better support for the slider itself (resists the saw tipping/flexing if you are processing heavier material)
- slider is mounted/aligned with 8 mounting bolts compared to 6 mounting bolts on the B3 Comfort
- has a longer 2500mm slider. If you move your crosscut fence to just past the edge of the slider, you can actually cut an 8 foot sheet if you don't use clamps. With clamps, you are looking at 75-80" (or between 6'3" to 6'8"). (You lose another 8" from that slider extension at the rear end).
- bigger outrigger and longer crosscut fence (you can crosscut to 8 feet if you need).

The downside is that it definitely requires a lot more space. When I bought my slider, I originally placed the order for a 6.6 foot version (like you are considering). I was told repeatedly by several people that I would regret the size and actually changed my order to a 9 foot slider. It is definitely longer and fills more space, but I love it and don't regret the decision at all. I have a smaller 2 car garage shop (20x20). I can make 5 foot slider cuts with the garage door close. If I need to do longer cuts, I just open the garage door to allow the slider to move out to full length. But yes, it does take up a huge amount of space.

The B3 Perform doesn't have the miter plunge index, but I don't think this option is really expensive. I considered this option when I bought my K700S, but ultimately decided not to get it. I have done angled miter cuts on occasion, but I have not seen any drastic need for that quick plunge miter index. You still have the miter angles printed on the outrigger table, so you can still do precision angle cuts. If you need to do quick-set miter cuts on smaller types of material, you can always get the miter gauge system for Hammer:

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/s...guide-sp123858

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/s...fence-sp123837


If you do decide you have the room for the larger B3 Perform, I think that you might find yourself using this more than the track saw to break down sheet goods. It's so easy to set the crosscut fence at a particular length, throw on the plywood sheet and run it through the saw - and you have a perfectly square cut. It takes a bit more time to setup this type of cut using a track saw, but it's doable.

Not trying to push you one way or another. Just giving more ideas for consideration.