I don't believe

[Jim Koepke]

you need to build what your customers want, not only what you like to build.

Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

jtk

[Mark Hennebury]

Ikea, Walmart. etc...

QUOTE=Jim Koepke;3284513]Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

jtk[/QUOTE]

[Keegan Shields]

Something else heard on a radio program many years ago, "If you make your target the classes you will live among the masses. Target the masses and you can live among the classes." - Bruce Williams (or something like that)

As this applies to furniture, (among many other things) the large companies do this better, so it’s best not to compete. Without the economies of scale, cheap East Asian labor, and heavy capitalization, a solo/small furniture makers best (and only reasonable) bet is to go to the high-end market where customers will pay more for your product’s unique story.

Of course finding and connecting with high-end customers is a whole different challenge.

[Chris Parks]

Contrary to most opinion here when I was selling dust extraction equipment it always astonished me how many customers were small commercial workshops that make a living out of woodworking of various types. I had an old customer call me last week because his VFD committed suicide and it has been many years since I have spoken to him. I had at least three customers who only did eye wateringly expensive tables and they seemed to do alright as well.

[Mark Wedel]

What got me into woodworking was that I wanted some display cabinets for miniatures, and I could not really find anything out their commercially that liked. So making my own gets me exactly what I want. I can imagine that is a fair amount of what US woodworking shops are doing is likely this custom work - someone wants a table that is a certain size to fit into a specific space. It is going to be expensive, but the person wanting it is willing to pay for it, vs an off the shelf (but relatively cheap) solution that isn't quite what they want.
But it is going to take quite a bit of effort to establish such a business - before someone is going to plunk down a bunch of money for that custom work, they are going to want to see examples of what you have done so can understand the quality and detail they are getting. And running such a business may have a considerable amount of time not doing the actual woodwork, but providing quotes, going over details of the design, contracts, etc.
I know I'm never going to do commercial woodworking - the closest I might ever get is if a friend asks 'could I make this for them', and I might come up with something. Or if I make a lot of something and have excess to sell off (in which case I already have the product - up to the public to decide if they want to buy it for the price I set).

[George Yetka]

I can agree with you to an extent. I like making boards they are quick and easy and dont require a ton of time to produce. I work 70 hours a week and have 2 small kids so time is limited, cutting boards are something I can spend a few hours a week in the garage and actually accomplish. If you work a couple of these events a year you can possibly do OK. If you work strictly with cutoffs you can be profitable. There are some guys out there getting 500 a board. Devo for instance. I couldnt sell 12 x 18 edge grain boards for 70 so I gave up.

Few people want something built by hand or more accurately few people want to pay for something built by hand. If they can get a fake teak board built oversees and finger jointed together for $30, they will buy that

[Jimmy Harris]

It's like any hobby. There's no money to be made in it. A hobby, by definition, is designed to occupy your free time and resources. Making money, is what a job is for. And hardly anyone likes their job (except for those who don't like their personal lives or can't be honest with themselves), which is why you get paid to do it. If your company could find someone willing to do your job for free, trust me, they would. But your job sucks, so they have to pay someone to do it. And the harder it is to find someone who can and will do the work, the more value the worker has. Everyone wants to play for a living. Which is why having fun doesn't typically pay well, unless you're in the top 0.00001%, like a professional athlete.

But there are people who make money off of woodwork. Cabinet makers can make a decent living. Also, custom furniture makers. But again, it's a business, not a hobby, if you're making money. And like any business, it's not about doing what you like, but about assessing the market and filing a niche that's missing. Business isn't about making stuff. It's about making money. Which means you'll need to focus most of your time on networking, building contacts and relationships, and developing your brand. You need to treat it like a business, which means no fun (kind of).

You can build the most beautiful chair in the world, and it'll still be hard to sell it for more than it costs to make it. But, if you build someone the chair they designed, they'll likely pay a lot more for it, because it's what they wanted, and not what you wanted. And, if you can get your chair published in a magazine or on the display floor of a high-end furniture store, it'll command a lot more money. Why? Because people are dumb and don't know what they want. But if they're told this is what they want, they'll believe they want it. So you have to make what they want, one way or another, if you want to profit off of it.

It's all supply and demand. So you either have to win on the supply side or win on the demand side. Either way, you're creating something they can't get anywhere else, which is why they'll pay more for it. And making something you like that's not that different from everything else out there, just isn't a smart way to run a business.

[Stew Denton]

I should have added that at the time, I made a little over half what the plant technicians were making, and we were buying a house, so we could not afford much at the time. Also, I soon discovered that we had a strong hot dry south west wind in the summer since we had nothing south of us to block the wind. That made it very difficult to grow anything anyway.

Stew

[chuck van dyck]

As a 38 year old with kid, mortgage, and business in NYC I was gonna share my thought, but Jimmy nailed it. If you want to make make money, architectural millwork pays well, thats what I do. But its hard to maintain a love for it as it destroys your body in the field, and if you’re busy enough to be stuck in the office, well whats the fun in that?
There’s a rustic modern thing happening right now that seems to sell well. I make a lot of turned items and it seems the more tool texture the better it all moves. Tear out is never okay, but a clean plane track or gouged texture reminds people this was not machined. My advice on small market items is don’t put yourself in diminishing returns territory by sanding for hours and applying 10 coats of varnish. Remove sanding all together if you can. Otherwise just embrace it and plug in the belt sander and get it done.

It's like any hobby. There's no money to be made in it. A hobby, by definition, is designed to occupy your free time and resources. Making money, is what a job is for. And hardly anyone likes their job (except for those who don't like their personal lives or can't be honest with themselves), which is why you get paid to do it. If your company could find someone willing to do your job for free, trust me, they would. But your job sucks, so they have to pay someone to do it. And the harder it is to find someone who can and will do the work, the more value the worker has. Everyone wants to play for a living. Which is why having fun doesn't typically pay well, unless you're in the top 0.00001%, like a professional athlete.

But there are people who make money off of woodwork. Cabinet makers can make a decent living. Also, custom furniture makers. But again, it's a business, not a hobby, if you're making money. And like any business, it's not about doing what you like, but about assessing the market and filing a niche that's missing. Business isn't about making stuff. It's about making money. Which means you'll need to focus most of your time on networking, building contacts and relationships, and developing your brand. You need to treat it like a business, which means no fun (kind of).

You can build the most beautiful chair in the world, and it'll still be hard to sell it for more than it costs to make it. But, if you build someone the chair they designed, they'll likely pay a lot more for it, because it's what they wanted, and not what you wanted. And, if you can get your chair published in a magazine or on the display floor of a high-end furniture store, it'll command a lot more money. Why? Because people are dumb and don't know what they want. But if they're told this is what they want, they'll believe they want it. So you have to make what they want, one way or another, if you want to profit off of it.

It's all supply and demand. So you either have to win on the supply side or win on the demand side. Either way, you're creating something they can't get anywhere else, which is why they'll pay more for it. And making something you like that's not that different from everything else out there, just isn't a smart way to run a business.

[chuck van dyck]

Currentflowwoodwork.com this is the story I push and deeply believe in. Im obsessed with tripod furniture. I will sell more stools than you because it’s my obsession, not yours. Find something that excites you and write fact and fantasy to create a world you feel good about. At least some people will dig it. You’re gonna hafta do a lot of talkin though. No one wants to buy from someone unwilling to engage.

[Charles Edward]

There are fine furniture makers that make a living making furniture. You won't find them on discussion boards, in magazines, or offering woodworking instruction 'in between commissions' to paying hobbyists.

They're too busy making.

They know that their customers are not other woodworkers. They're delighted you don't know who they are, because they wouldn't have time for you in the first place, and validation comes from the work and making a living from it, not from adoring subscribers to some magazine gasping its last breath.

The people you see in magazines aren't even close to the tip of the iceberg and in fact might be some of the least talented people around, comparatively speaking. Don't shrink your world unnecessarily. Gallery owners in large cities, employees of Sotheby's, Christie's, etc. know who these people are. You don't, because you think Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking, and the people who have time to appear in them, are the be-all and end-all when in fact they aren't even close. Many, if not most, don't have websites because they have virtually nothing to gain from one, they're busy enough as it is, and don't have time for tire-kickers who could afford the work only in their dreams.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Note to self, "Don't shrink your world unnecessarily.". I am going to pin that to a wall in the shop and try hard to spend time out there.

[Warren Mickley]

There are fine furniture makers that make a living making furniture. You won't find them on discussion boards, in magazines, or offering woodworking instruction 'in between commissions' to paying hobbyists.

They're too busy making.

They know that their customers are not other woodworkers. They're delighted you don't know who they are, because they wouldn't have time for you in the first place, and validation comes from the work and making a living from it, not from adoring subscribers to some magazine gasping its last breath.

The people you see in magazines aren't even close to the tip of the iceberg and in fact might be some of the least talented people around, comparatively speaking. Don't shrink your world unnecessarily. Gallery owners in large cities, employees of Sotheby's, Christie's, etc. know who these people are. You don't, because you think Popular Woodworking and Fine Woodworking, and the people who have time to appear in them, are the be-all and end-all when in fact they aren't even close. Many, if not most, don't have websites because they have virtually nothing to gain from one, they're busy enough as it is, and don't have time for tire-kickers who could afford the work only in their dreams.

Do you still operate "Llanfair Studios"?

[Tom M King]

I've seen good short runs from such fine woodworkers, but have never seen one successful long term through good and bad economic times.

[andy bessette]

I manage to make a living customizing yachts. Your woodworking skills must satisfy some of the fussiest people on the planet.