Do I need a RAS in my shop?

[brent stanley]

I wouldn’t buy anything but a turret RAS..

Oh really? I'm aware of the pros and cons of the different styles, but what are the pros to a turret style that win you over?

[jack duren]

Never alignment problems..If you have to fight to keep it aligned, it’s not worth having..

[Benjimin Young]

I am moving to a new location and setting up shop from scratch all-beit in a smaller venue. But for now I plan to keep my craftsman RAS and sliding miter side by each. I built a disk sander table for it's OEM 10" disk sander disk and also like using it for dadoes. I will however loose the OEM stand for the RAS as I think I can build something a little more footprint efficient.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ive had few Dewalts big and small in my shop for rough cutoff. I just phased out the last one, a 12" downsizing a bit for semi retirement. If you have the space they are OK for rough cutting to length. Slider saw can work for shorter pieces but awkward. I put a auto return on the Dewalt and that adds a bit of safety. For rough cutoff another safety item is keeping a couple spacers handy for crooked material that is not touching the fence. the can cause a big blade pinch especially in thick hardwoods. I also have a German Graule radial that is extremely accurate. I try to preserve the blade on that one by not using it much on rough cutoff. The Graule has a built in return and also a adjustable hydraulic dampener to prevent blade climb. I've run non negative blades in this with no issues. hard to argue against safety!

Back in the 50s and 60s my uncles had a lumber yard and planing mill. They used a big Comet radial to both crosscut and rip framing material. My dad as a contractor always had a radial on job sites back then. I think the portable chop saws ended all that.

My rough cutoff method now is evolving to the electric chain saw with a simple ladder jig. works also with a hand circular saw and very safe. i couldn't imagine rough cutting with a jig saw.
Attachment 512392

I'm perpetually on the hunt for one of these, Joe. Absolutely love the idea of a compact accurate radial saw. For parts, I feel the Omga is excellent, but for wider things and taller things I think the Graule is probably ideal. The largest model would be absolutely glorious for most shop-made timber framing work since it will cut 200mm (almost 8") high, and 20.5" deep. Having precisely square edges on material this large is wonderful for making accurate tenons. It's not necessary but it's really helpful to have.

WRT the OP's question, there are items that are desirable to have cut to a precise length that are very awkward to do on a sliding table saw. Long parts are hard to deal with on a slider, not impossible, but awkward. Much easier to have them up on a fixed table. The long stops on a slider tend to have a limitation on distance of around 9-10'.

On a RAS or chop saw setup you can have stops out as far as necessary for your shop and they can be made extremely accurate if so desired.

[brent stanley]

Brian, timberframing is one of the things I do for a living and very few shops use RASs at all, and if they do it's for small stuff like braces, struts or extremely small members like truss components and bracketry etc. The RAS will only give you an accurate cut if you can count on the timber being straight and square on your table and up against your fences, and unless you can run them across your jointer, they often aren't, especially if you've seasoned them a bit. Not many folks want to lift 400lb timbers (or more! I've worked with 2000lb timbers!) up onto a table anyway. I have two RASs, one swings and 18" blade that will crosscut 36" and the other a 14" good for 20 something and will be set up in the new shop for brace production. One for the end cuts, the other to hog away the cheek and shoulders. They will be extremely helpful for struts and bracketry and maybe parallel chord truss components, but the real timbers will be done on the sawhorses with skillsaws.

[Joe Calhoon]

I'm perpetually on the hunt for one of these, Joe. Absolutely love the idea of a compact accurate radial saw. For parts, I feel the Omga is excellent, but for wider things and taller things I think the Graule is probably ideal. The largest model would be absolutely glorious for most shop-made timber framing work since it will cut 200mm (almost 8") high, and 20.5" deep. Having precisely square edges on material this large is wonderful for making accurate tenons. It's not necessary but it's really helpful to have.

WRT the OP's question, there are items that are desirable to have cut to a precise length that are very awkward to do on a sliding table saw. Long parts are hard to deal with on a slider, not impossible, but awkward. Much easier to have them up on a fixed table. The long stops on a slider tend to have a limitation on distance of around 9-10'.


On a RAS or chop saw setup you can have stops out as far as necessary for your shop and they can be made extremely accurate if so desired.

Brian,
The Graule is the most accurate radial saw I have used. We set up a Omga radial in Bhutan. It was far better than any of the Dewalts I have owned but not as accurate as the Graule. It’s the design of the Graule is where the accuracy comes from.It will not do as many tasks as a conventional radial but cuts square and miters both ways very accurately. Who wants to rip on a radial anyway. Here is a picture of the large protractor and positive stops on the saw.
graule close.jpg
The one downside of these saws is you cannot put a groover or dado in them. Graule makes a separate saw for trenching. I should use mine more for certain cuts. After owning several crappy radials I automatically go to the slider. Its awkward because you have to turn the workpiece every time. On a radial you can just keep pushing the material one direction.
When we toured UK joinery shops most had Graule's or Omga radials and separate trenching saws usually Graule or older UK iron like the Dominion in this pictures. A separate trenching saw would be a treat especially for double hung work. I think for your Japanese style timber work one of the would be useful. My little Graule will cut almost 6" thick.
Dominion saw.jpg

[Edward Weber]

The RAS will only give you an accurate cut if you can count on the timber being straight and square on your table and up against your fences, and unless you can run them across your jointer, they often aren't, especially if you've seasoned them a bit.

This is one of the big factors that scares some away from RAS's.
If the wood isn't firm against the fence, the blade can and will pull it until it is. Your typical home center 2x4 is not straight. This can cause sudden unexpected movement of the saw head and wood. Binding and burning can often occur, as well as the ruining of undergarments.
Any saw that utilizes a fence, needs to have wood with a straight reference surface for a safe, accurate cut. At least have the wood clamped securely.

[brent stanley]

Exactly, now if you could get an 800lb timber up on the benches in front of the saw it may have enough weight to stay put and maybe wouldn't matter so much if you're not doing a thru cut, but in the time it took you to muscle the beast up there and tap tap tap it in line with the cutting path of the blade, then repeat it when you roll it 180degrees to do the opposite shoulder, most folks could have finished the job with skillsaws twice over. Now if it's square stock and you can easily lift it onto the table, that's a different story.

Many times a year people see me cutting joinery with skillsaws and chisels right beside my RASs and ask me why I don't do it with the RAS. Then I ask them to place the 18', green 8x12 timber up on the bench for me so we can give it a test run!

[Brian Holcombe]

Brent, perhaps I should narrow the scope of my commentary. For Japanese traditional work within the envelop of the tea room, it involves a standard post size of approx 5 x 5. Larger stuff is fairly common in temple carpentry but not what I deal with most often. I tend to revolve my thinking about this, but it’s basically just making XL furniture in how it’s constructed.

The folks who do larger structural work and roof work tend to be similarly geared up as a western timber framer, leaning toward skil saws or Mafell stuff for most of the work.

For my work I joint everything and indoor work is often laminated similar to door stiles. This is a common practice now for show beams which are structural but want faces in the highest grade VG material.

The work I do is typically non-structural and non-load bearing and so I often make beams by laminating a poplar core and facing it with hardwood.

Common sizes are 5x5 for posts and 4x6 or 4x8 for beams. They’re typically in the weight range where I can handle them myself and they can be loaded onto stationary machinery. I’ve made beams in walnut and yellow cedar that look like perfect VG on three visible faces.

Joe, thanks for the details! Both of those would be excellent

[brent stanley]

Brent, perhaps I should narrow the scope of my commentary. For Japanese traditional work within the envelop of the tea room, it involves a standard post size of approx 5 x 5. Larger stuff is fairly common in temple carpentry but not what I deal with most often. I tend to revolve my thinking about this, but it’s basically just making XL furniture in how it’s constructed.

The folks who do larger structural work and roof work tend to be similarly geared up as a western timber framer, leaning toward skil saws or Mafell stuff for most of the work.

For my work I joint everything and indoor work is often laminated similar to door stiles. This is a common practice now for show beams which are structural but want faces in the highest grade VG material.

The work I do is typically non-structural and non-load bearing and so I often make beams by laminating a poplar core and facing it with hardwood.

Common sizes are 5x5 for posts and 4x6 or 4x8 for beams. They’re typically in the weight range where I can handle them myself and they can be loaded onto stationary machinery. I’ve made beams in walnut and yellow cedar that look like perfect VG on three visible faces.

Joe, thanks for the details! Both of those would be excellent

Hi Brian, those sizes are exactly what I was thinking would suit a RAS very well. I am incorporating more Japanese approaches , styles and joinery into my work all the time. Our house will be very heavily.inspire by Japanese approaches. Have you heard of the Menomonie Farmers market pavilion? One of my favorite modern timberframes, done by a couple of folks I know: https://exploremenomonie.com/events/...ket-wednesday/

[Brian Holcombe]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

[John Pendery]

I have an Omga RN 700 that I use for anything from breaking down rough lumber to certain final dimension cuts and occasional dados. I can’t comprehend trying to rip anything on a radial arm saw. It’s not as accurate as my slider, but as Joe pointed out flipping material end for end on repeated length cuts can be a major pain. I can’t imagine getting rid of it unless I came across a Graule for sale in the states and Brian didn’t beat me to it! Good thing about Omga is parts are very easy to get and not much has changed in the designs. Used Omga’s are also easy to find for reasonable prices considering the quality of the saw.

I would love to get an opportunity to do more Japanese style timber framing that you guys are discussing. What little timber framing I’ve done involves very large circular saws, a woodmizer, heavy equipment, and a very sore back from bending over a chain mortiser all day!

[Joe Calhoon]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

Brian,
Chris was a amazing craftsman! I had a chance to visit him in his shop years ago. I think this timber might have been part of the project you mention. He gave me a demo using his hand planes. His passing is a great loss to woodworking.
Chris Hall.jpg

[jack duren]

There definitely a touchy tool. Something isn’t right , it will quickly let you know…

I leave mine setup for dados…I got tired of setting up for dados. If that’s all that saw does for me , I’m happy..

[brent stanley]

Really cool project, neat to see that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think basically anything that can be handled without hydraulics and prepped with a jointer is going to do well with a RAS.

Japanese work is interesting, there are essentially no triangulating braces. They strengthen the structure against wracking forces by using horizontal braces in the walls and by raising the floor and using the beams under the floor to brace. Fully traditional work sits on large stones as footers, they carve the post to accept the stone. In more modern work there are concrete footings which use all thread rods as is typically fit western work.

If you haven’t seen it already, check out Chris Hall’s blog on building the Japanese gate outside of the Boston MFA. He used some fairly large timbers and did all of the work in the shop using mainly stationary machines.

If you can hunt around and find some additional pics of it, the scope and scale of it will blow your mind. Someone said it was the largest outdoor timberframe built in the last 100 years or something like that. The joinery is well executed and fascinating. I've borrowed a couple of things from it for my first workshop and my second will steal some more. I really enjoy Oxbow Design's Instagram. I talk with him and Jay fairly regularly about TFing and design.

I knew Chris actually. We used to talk a fair amount about shaper stuff and joinery. Talked with him a few days before he died, and have enjoyed going back through his work. He brought things to North America in a very tasteful way I thought....a real loss.