[OP]
Contributor
Building a new Roubo. Anyone have any thoughts or experience here?
Trying to decide between
- Benchcrafted Classic Tail Vise
- Hovarter VX21 Wagon Vise
- HNT Gordon Tail Vise
I'm sure they would all do the job, but just curious if there are opinions from those with experience in this area.
Contributor
I only have experience with the Benchcraftef. It works well and is beefy. No knowledge of the Hovarter. The HNT Gordon is beautiful but doesn’t look as heavy duty. It does look easier to install. Have you looked at Lake Erie wooden ones?
[OP]
Contributor
I haven't but that is another one to consider. If you have a vise made from wood, wouldn't it be susceptible to wood movement just like anything else? Could that lead to problems with smooth vise operation or am I overthinking that?Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins
Contributor
Probably overthinking it. The wood should expand out against the width, not against the length, so the threads will remain at the same distance preventing any binding. So long as they're cut with a bit of extra room, which most threads, it shouldn't be much of a problem. But I don't like wooden screws, as the just don't seem like they'd last as long to me, and usually aren't much cheaper. Then again, you see them on benches that have seen over a 100 years of heavy use and they still work today, so it's probably just a superstition I have.
Personally, I'd opt for the wagon vise. But I use the end vise mostly for planing and the wagon vise provides better support for that. But it's all personal preference. If one was obviously the better choice, you'd never see the other.
Contributor
Not being familiar with all of those vises, Dr. Google was consulted. It appears they are all wagon vises. At one time this seemed like a good idea to me. Then after paying attention to my woodworking habits it occurred to me my regular inexpensive style vise worked much better for many of my work holding needs.
End Vise in Use.jpg
This vise racks, but that can be handled and sometimes is an advantage.
Otherwise one can make a twin screw vise for ~$120 if they want economy or under $400 if they want a chain drive between the screws.
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...kbenches/vises
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
My Sjobergs bench has wooden screws and I do notice that they are swollen and harder to turn in the summer months (this affects the tail vise more than the shoulder vise. I don't think that it's a bad thing really, but I do notice it.
I really like traditional european shoulder vises, probably because I have used them all of my life. But there are several ways to hold work with one that isn't just pinching it between dogs. They do sag, which can be a nuisance but all in all, if I had to build a new bench, I would still stick with one as opposed to a wagon vise.
DC
Contributor
This to me is a tail vise. The tail vise hardware that Bench crafted sells is more like a wagon vise to me than a tail vise. Lee valley sells the hardware for $56.50 or tail vise for $115. or the quick release tail vise for $395. I prefer the $115 model but making the wooden part takes a little research and planning on how to do it. Frank Klausz uses the 56.50 type screw. The work Bench book by Scott Landis has a complete drawing of the entire vise. Tail vises can get complicated and if your want the simplest to install then The $395 model is the way to go. For me I like the $115 model PS: Woodcraft also sells the vise Hardware.
DSC01030.JPG
This to me is a wagon vise. I bought the hardware from Lee Valley for $46.90 I am building a Moravian bench at the present and it will have this type of wagon vise on it. It is routed on the bottom just like bench Crafted's wagon vise. This is the simplest and eases vise to make
DSC01027.JPG
I am not familiar with the other vises mentioned
Tom
Contributor
Another thing about the simple Sjöberg vise is the ability to hold odd shapes using the double row of dog holes.
Circle Holder Engaged.jpg
I've also made a pair of jaw extenders to hold work on the bench, instead of in the vise jaws for mortising.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
Why? Just use holdfasts, doe's feet, planning stop(s), etc. And if/when you need a vice, consider a Moxon and a Hi vice.
Richard
Contributor
John, my bench has the Benchcrafted ail vise, and it has been superb and reliable all the years. I heartedly recommend it. Note that my bench is 3 1/2" thick.
I have not used or seen the Hovater, and cannot comment.
I did "own" the HNT Gordon tail vise briefly - it was a prize in a competition, and subsequently sold - and have also used one on many occasions. These are beautifully made and run smoothly. They appear to be designed for an easy installation in a thinner bench top (2"), and would be a better choice in this case. The downside is that they are designed for replaceable dogs (of varying heights), rather than pop-up dogs. I would find this inconvenient. Note that the "wheel" is a smaller diameter roller and ts small size makes for a compact set up. But I prefer the larger wheel of the Benchcrafted.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Last edited by Derek Cohen; 12-20-2023 at 6:48 PM.
Contributor
Have you ever tried planing on a round piece held by a holdfast? How about hollowing out the center for a seat?
Here is my jaw extension for mortising:
Chopping Mortise - Vise Jaw Extenders.jpg
That would be prone to flopping over if held by a holdfast.
Put a dog in my vise and it can do what a wagon vise does. Not much to do to a wagon vise to make it as versatile as a simpler to install vise.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
Well, yes and no.
When I was in Junior High shop class (in the climate controlled school building) there was about a 50/50 mix between wood and metal screws on the bench vises. I found I prefer a wooden vise screw, but that is a personal preference, not scientific superiority.
I do own the Mac Daddy model wooden screw from Lake Erie, honestly it is (with AYS chain) about the same price as the Mac Daddy model from Bench Crafted with the crisscross hardware. Like anything else, good tools usually cost more than mediocre tools.
I almost mentioned wooden screw as an option earlier in the thread, but it seemed like in the early days you were looking for something almost as good as BC at a lower price.
FWIW when I was ready to order my wooden kit from Lake Erie I first emailed them and said, Hey, you know, the wintertime in my shop gets down to about +55dF and about 10%RH. In high summer I can often record +80dF and 70%RH. Can you cut a screw for me? They emailed back and said "Yes." I sent them money. They sent me awesome product. The screw is a little bit tighter in the nut in the summer, and a little bit looser in the winter, but I have never needed like a hammer or something to turn the Tommy bar.
If you use a wooden vise screw and like it, and know the ordinary extremes in your shop you may, my one data point, order from Lake Erie with total confidence.
As far as tail vises, my opinion (not owning one) is you need to be clear on how often you need to vise something narrow at the front of your bench like a sticking board, versus something wide like a panel. I personally tend to whack things on my bench top. I like the idea of a wagon vise, but I don't like the idea of not being able to whack stuff over near there.
Contributor
Bees wax is the best thing for wooden vises. Lasts a long time before needing a new application. Smooth and quiet.
Contributor
I used Johnson's floor wax on mine, 3-4 coats, buffed like USMC. Unsure of previous thread title. I waxed and buffed mine quite a bit more than the usual suspects on youtube, no trouble or indication to rewax with mine yet after however many years. I would not expect future trouble with intentional application and buffing of bee's wax. What I really like is my double lead screw gives one inch of chop movement per revolution, so starting with a closed chop looking at an 8x8 I can rotate the Tommy bar 8.25 turns, have the chop open 'wide enough' and close the chop with my knee while holding the work piece with both hands.
I am happy for the folks with expensive metal screws that can have the jaws on their leg vise open 8.25 inches, spin the wheel, and have the chop close up on 4/4 stock; but at the end of the day it is a stunt. At top end price range both wooden and metal screws provide way more than adequate clamping force. Both metal and wooden screws, at this price point, are more than adequate for pro users and overkill for at home hobbyists like me.
I have no quarrel with anyone who has used both and prefers a metal screw. I have used both and prefer wood, but that is a personal subjective feeling that others may not have or share. If you have used both and prefer a metal screw we can still be friends as long as you understand as a Tarheel I hate Duke basketball so much I want you to hate them too. As long as your second favorite basketball team is 'whoever is playing Duke,' I don't care if you like a metal screw on your vises. I don't care if you drive a Ford or a Chevy or a Dodge; if your truck meets your needs it is a good truck.
I do think that giving a new wood screw/nut combination a thorough waxing and buffing is part and parcel of an intentional, workmanlike install.
Contributor
20231221_071236.jpg
I absolutely love my Hovarter wagon vise. It locks and unlocks (tightens and loosens) in under a quarter turn of the handle. Once loose, you just slide the vise/block to where you want it, super quick and easy.
My bench top is 4" thick, and Walnut end block is 5".
Last edited by Jason Meinholz; 12-21-2023 at 8:29 AM.
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