Adjustable T&G set, 8"ish, with capabilities from 3/8-3/4?

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent, I tried the Whitehall limiter setup for T&G and could never get the fit i wanted. loose for paneling and snug for joinery. I do a lot of T&G for exterior panels thinking I could just use this head on the T26 with automatic setting to make a quick job of it.The first set I ordered was too tight to close up without glue. Whitehall suggested that the pins could be loosened and moved to offset the knives a bit. That worked with a lot of messing around but then very hard to get those pins back in the original spot for other cutters. Had the same problem with the glue joint cutter. I did order another set with a looser fitted it works for paneling. The beauty of the adjustable groover type is the ability to get the correct fit. I do love this head for short run moulding profiles though.

Whitehill block.jpg

[brent stanley]

Yeah, they find that tongue and groove is always a hard one Joe because you ask a 20 different joiners and you get 20 different opinions of what is the perfect fit. I visited a guy who had knives "off the shelf" for kitchen doors (nice snug fit like you'd want for doors) and was using them for panelling. You literally needed clamps to assemble the panel it was so snug along the whole 32" or so, and he said it was perfect. Big money woodworker, formally trained/apprenticed in Austria, shop full of CNC SCM and Martin kit. Many would say that was too tight for panels on the back of a display cabinet but opinions are all over the map. Some of the Whitehill knives are for panelling and some for doors, and I've caught people almost get the wrong ones.

I've personally never had a problem with their cope and stick knife sets though I've only run 8-10 because I don't do that type of work, but have helped people into probably 100 sets over the past few years. The only problems I've heard about could be
traced back to one or more of the following: Poorly set up machine with either runnout or spindle alignment issues or both. Incorrect knife installation, bad coping approach (homemade sleds), a damaged head with a bent pin, and where the cut and fit was exactly as designed, just not to the taste of the particular joiner or they bought the wrong knives for the job. Now all that said, maybe %20 of the time you have to fiddle with them to get your fit just the way you want. There is no question that that can be a pain in the butt when it happens to you, but some people find taking the time to fiddle a price easier to swallow than the cost of dedicated insert sets. That's going to be a shop by shop / person by person decision. I have a brand new set of amazing insert style cabinet door tooling in my shop as we speak (that would do Larry's work perfectly!) that I could own for a ridiculous discount but will not buy them because I don't have any interest in doing much of the work they perform. I would rather use knives for the odd kitchen I do and maybe need to fiddle. This style (and corrugated) allow for custom profiles that would not be available in dedicated insert-style heads too which is nice.

I agree these sets are great for shorter runs of mouldings and is really where they excel. I have about 800lf of baseboard in poplar (tulip wood) on one knife set and they are still working as new so they can handle a fair amount of work.

[Jared Sankovich]

Whats the cost of one of those heads and the one Jared posted below

The cmt version is 750 euro, the zuani is $1400.

[Brian Holcombe]

Do you guys prefer steel tooling over aluminum? I'm buying mostly steel tooling but looking at CMT aluminum for some of the small stuff like a plain chamfer tool.

[brent stanley]

Do you guys prefer steel tooling over aluminum? I'm buying mostly steel tooling but looking at CMT aluminum for some of the small stuff like a plain chamfer tool.

Steel is going to be more durable especially where it is threaded and the threads need to be used regularly, also more resistant to accidental knocks or bumps. A friend had an aluminum euro block he dropped something on and it deformed the knife slot at the perimeter and the knives wouldn't sit in properly anymore. I always go steel when I can but very large diameter tooling needs to be lighter and Aluminum is common there.

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds good, I'll stick with steel where possible.

[Warren Lake]

I have Opollo head which is the same or close the OMAS I still use the corrugated. It works and no issues. If I spend three seconds more on set up so what its irrelevant. But since you both state you dick around with some of those cutter heads to adjust the fit, then those are even slower. Thanks Jared on the prices sure ones shown are more.

The knives are still in that head so it takes as long to slide it on and torque the nut. When it comes time to give them attention then there will be 500 sandpaper stuck on the shaper table, hone the back and back in and that is it.

[Brian Holcombe]

The fastest thing to do is have a machine setup for every cut. I cut a certain type of mortise all the time and just leave the Maka setup for it.

With space, ideal to have certain machines setup and left that way for cuts you make all the time. Short of that, having a stack of tools setup for specific cuts and left that way is the way to go. I haven't moved into shaper work yet but I do that pretty often for router work. For little mini tenons I just setup a cutter for it and leave it that way.

Setup is the real time sink in short run work.

[Warren Lake]

Brian I think people whine too much about set up not pointing to you but to how often ive read it takes time stuff. Not really its goes very fast and who cares for some extra seconds on a job, it just plain doesnt matter. What is an issue is if you have to repeat a step and that machine is already set up for another function then you are going backwards.

Depending what it is making extra parts applies, it will cover defects or blow outs or any mishaps along the way. Ive done small production runs and that has saved me a number of times not having to go back.

We started with no gizmos and set up and test cuts goes fast as that is all ive ever had. One shop I was in had 12 shapers for doors. When he asked me why he had so many, I said sure you save set up time. He said more so if there is blow out or some issue they can remake that part very fast.

[brent stanley]

I have Opollo head which is the same or close the OMAS I still use the corrugated. It works and no issues. If I spend three seconds more on set up so what its irrelevant. But since you both state you dick around with some of those cutter heads to adjust the fit, then those are even slower. Thanks Jared on the prices sure ones shown are more.

The knives are still in that head so it takes as long to slide it on and torque the nut. When it comes time to give them attention then there will be 500 sandpaper stuck on the shaper table, hone the back and back in and that is it.

If the grinding is correct you rarely have to fiddle with them in my experience Warren. I personally never have, and if you set them in the head like you probably do with corrugated (scratch test) then you probably won't have to. If you go as far as putting them in a setting stand, then you'll get it right on. Half of the rare occasions the fit is not what people want, the knives are working perfectly, but it's just not to the personal taste of the user.

[Warren Lake]

I dont have a set up stand. Spindles are not all true and there is a clearance between head and shaft, Its more accurate to set up on the machine.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian I think people whine too much about set up not pointing to you but to how often ive read it takes time stuff. Not really its goes very fast and who cares for some extra seconds on a job, it just plain doesnt matter. What is an issue is if you have to repeat a step and that machine is already set up for another function then you are going backwards.

Depending what it is making extra parts applies, it will cover defects or blow outs or any mishaps along the way. Ive done small production runs and that has saved me a number of times not having to go back.

We started with no gizmos and set up and test cuts goes fast as that is all ive ever had. One shop I was in had 12 shapers for doors. When he asked me why he had so many, I said sure you save set up time. He said more so if there is blow out or some issue they can remake that part very fast.

Well that's the issue mainly, the SOP in my shop is to leave the setup until the machine *must* be setup for another process, I know plenty of people who breakdown their setup immediately after cutting their last part and they are re-setting it up again later. The issue being that it saves time if you need to re-run a part. I also, typically run enough that I have spares at every stage.

Setup for short runs is time consuming, especially if you run through setups a lot. Not a whine so much as being aware of the reality of how time is consumed. That changes a bit when the work involves long runs where the cutting is the large consumer and the setup is minimal by comparison. If you're running T&G and have the chamfering as a separate operation, then it's a huge time sink by comparison to adding a little setup time and running the full detail.

I have other reasons for bringing work back into my shop that I have outsourced, outside of speed/time. It's a waste of time for me to run T&G for jobs, but it's a huge boost in quality to be able to super surface, then final thickness on the backside of the part, then T&G. That's a waste of time by comparison to running it through a molder but it produces a much better quality result when a super surfaced finish is desired. I've super surfaced as a final on T&G in the past and it makes an inconsistent finished thickness which is a PITA for stuff being fit into a groove.

Outside of that, I think it's just much easier not to have to have knives ground for every job I do. There is no one local to me who does it, so I have a multi-day lag between needing the cutter and putting it to use. Then, of course, the back and forth between myself and the grinder to get exactly what I want.

[Jared Sankovich]

Do you guys prefer steel tooling over aluminum? I'm buying mostly steel tooling but looking at CMT aluminum for some of the small stuff like a plain chamfer tool.

I generally prefer steel, but I have a bunch of aluminum cmt heads and they work exactly like the steel heads. So basically if there are two identical heads one in steel and one in aluminum I would get the steel (assuming it's not a absurd price.l difference) but I wouldn't overlook a aluminum head if it's all that's available or absurdly cheap (which is why I have a bunch of aluminum heads)

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Jared, I think I’ll pickup the chamfer head in aluminum. Everything else so far has been steel.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brian,
I also prefer steel but aluminum heads are fine in a small shop treated with care. I have a few Ammana and Oretly and they are fine. Typically heads for door and window work on CNC routers are made in aluminum to keep the weight down. For production the better quality ones will have a hard steel to steel connection for the inserts. Quite a few years back I had a door set made like this thinking CNC router down the road. That never happened but this set has worked fine. This one has the steel connection. In a small shop you are not changing inserts often enough to worry about stripping the threads.
Door Stack.jpg