All table saws to be SawStops?

[mike stenson]

As long as the sawstop patents are expiring, this isn't as big of a concern for me. I expect most major companies have had their eye on developing and implementing the technology for years. The only thing holding the safety back was sawstop itself.

Apparently said by a patent lawyer:
"For what's actually been invented, the number of SawStop patents is absurd... but if an inventor wants to spend all that money on fees to file continuations for every conceivable iteration of the product, that's his right."

I don't desire the sawstop at all. My experience with them was horrible customer service and a saw that had terrible kickback issues. I even saw the same issue pop up with sawstop on a dedicated social media persons page when their sawstop started having kickbacks. However, if I have the option to put the flesh sensing tech in a future sliding table saw, I wouldn't turn it away.

This. Once it's no longer a protected technology, it'll be adopted fast.

[jack duren]

There ain’t but one way to put this… Same old song and dance..

[Rich Engelhardt]

What about every other tool?

Their day is coming - just not now.

[Bryan Hall]

I’ve not exoerienced any of that..If you having a bunch of kickbacks, you would have them on all of them.

Well documented in another post. They had an issue for a while, never said every saw. I had to make videos and everything. When the blade is at 45 it had a very high likelihood of throwing the off cut. I experienced it repeatedly and recently saw videos of the same issue throwing the offcuts straight into the wall behind the saw.

They admitted it was their problem and that a tech and replacement parts were needed. Never got them to follow through though. It was the first time I ever had to file a credit card chargeback.

[jack duren]

Well documented in another post. They had an issue for a while, never said every saw. I had to make videos and everything. When the blade is at 45 it had a very high likelihood of throwing the off cut. I experienced it repeatedly and recently saw videos of the same issue throwing the offcuts straight into the wall behind the saw.

They admitted it was their problem and that a tech and replacement parts were needed. Never got them to follow through though. It was the first time I ever had to file a credit card chargeback.

So the problem was with your saw, not all Sawstops?

[James Jayko]

I live in a state where it legal to operate a motorcycle without a helmet. Someone want to become a veg-head, guess who pays.

Not to be morbid / callous / gross, but the only thing we pay for in this scenario is for the road crew to scoop up the remnants of skull and brain matter off the highway. That guy is dead.

[Bryan Hall]

So the problem was with your saw, not all Sawstops?

Again, I’ll repeat myself, I never said it was all sawstops.

It was a wide enough problem for them to write letters to affected customers and to have zero nationwide inventory to fix/replace.

Big enough of a problem to show up on well known social media peoples pages.

My point is the same, I don’t desire a sawstop, their customer service for me was terrible, the only thing holding other companies back from implementing saw safety is actually sawstop itself.

[Rob Sack]

My friend that works in the local ER says that they get hundreds of broken bones and mangled joints a year from the local ski slopes each of which will incur tens of thousands of dollars in treatment. Should we shut down the ski slope, require skiers to pay a higher premium or require them to sign a waiver that any injuries incurred while skiing should will not be covered by insurance?

I don't now how the rest of the world works but I know fellow employees that smoke don't pay higher premiums than I do because of their hazardous life choices.

Compared to smoking and skiing the cost of treating severed appendages has got to be miniscule on a nation wide basis. A couple of stiches and send them home.

Unlike having the availability of a Sawstop, thee are no safer alternatives to standard skis, at least as far as I know. As far as smoking is concerned, smokers should pay higher premiums.

[jack duren]

Again, I’ll repeat myself, I never said it was all sawstops.

It was a wide enough problem for them to write letters to affected customers and to have zero nationwide inventory to fix/replace.

Big enough of a problem to show up on well known social media peoples pages.

My point is the same, I don’t desire a sawstop, their customer service for me was terrible, the only thing holding other companies back from implementing saw safety is actually sawstop itself.

I believe it’s hit or miss or just that model.I experiences zero problems outside the norm..

[Edward Weber]

For businesses and institutions, I think it makes sense, for the individual, not as cut and dried.
I certainly don't like how SS positioned themselves in the market with their enormous web of patents but they have saved many from serious injury.
I couldn't find the actual number but I have seen things like 6,000 fingers saved. Why are so many people getting so close to the blade? SS may have saved them but I would like to know what led to all those activation's. I would rather people go through a training course or take an operators test to show they understand how to use a TS safely, rather than only relying on the built in safety feature. Maybe a little knowledge could lower that number.

My position is that as long as the safety system doesn't impede the normal operation of the saw, why not. That being said, there are, IMO better safety systems than the hotdog sensing technology out there, Many have been around for years but with SS batting down everything that might even come close to possibly infringing on their turf, there's no point in bringing anything forward.

This is another reason I don't like the original SS owners point of view, SS may be good but you're effectively stifling innovation with your monopoly.

Altendorf and others have systems that are non destructive, meaning you don't have to buy cartridges and new blades after activation, you simply reset the system. While the cost of a blade/cartridge is a small price to pay to avoid injury, in the event of an accidental misfire with SS, you need to pay.

I also DO NOT believe that tables saws are inherently dangerous, this is anthropomorphisizing a piece of machinery. This applies to all human operated tools, hand or power, the operator and how he/she uses it, is what makes it safe or unsafe.
My table saw/s have never done anything to anyone, they are safe.

[jack duren]

For businesses and institutions, I think it makes sense, for the individual, not as cut and dried.
I certainly don't like how SS positioned themselves in the market with their enormous web of patents but they have saved many from serious injury.
I couldn't find the actual number but I have seen things like 6,000 fingers saved. Why are so many people getting so close to the blade? SS may have saved them but I would like to know what led to all those activation's. I would rather people go through a training course or take an operators test to show they understand how to use a TS safely, rather than only relying on the built in safety feature. Maybe a little knowledge could lower that number.

My position is that as long as the safety system doesn't impede the normal operation of the saw, why not. That being said, there are, IMO better safety systems than the hotdog sensing technology out there, Many have been around for years but with SS batting down everything that might even come close to possibly infringing on their turf, there's no point in bringing anything forward.

This is another reason I don't like the original SS owners point of view, SS may be good but you're effectively stifling innovation with your monopoly.

Altendorf and others have systems that are non destructive, meaning you don't have to buy cartridges and new blades after activation, you simply reset the system. While the cost of a blade/cartridge is a small price to pay to avoid injury, in the event of an accidental misfire with SS, you need to pay.

I also DO NOT believe that tables saws are inherently dangerous, this is anthropomorphisizing a piece of machinery. This applies to all human operated tools, hand or power, the operator and how he/she uses it, is what makes it safe or unsafe.
My table saw/s have never done anything to anyone, they are safe.

So…. What was the price of the Altendorf vs Sawstop?


Why someone gets close to the blade can only be answered by the one who got injured. I can tell you right now, there are higher percentages that haven’t been caught by the blade.

[Jim Dwight]

With respect to patents expiring we should all know that they can be extended. In the youtube I watched they stated Steve Gass was working to make that happen. I know he sold the rights but apparently still has some involvemennt, likely defending and extending the patents. So I do not trust that as a complete solution. I think the commission should negotiate a deal with SS and anybody else claiming to have patent protection that offers other table saw providers a fixed price for the right to use any applicable patents. Apparently things like this are done in the telecommunications industry.

Patents are a big legal cost area. If you own a patent, you will need to sue people who violate it to get them to stop. That happened when Bosch tried to introduce their saw. It is not always the merits of the claim of the parties that decides these suits. Often it is who has the deepest pockets and will fight the hardest and longest. This is just my speculation but I think Bosch gave up not because SS was right but because it was more than they thought the U. S. table saw market could return to them. SS has been aggressive in the past so I don't trust that they would not be again. Issuing a mandate without a deal with them and any others with rights just sets us up to not have any new table saws in the U. S. other than those sold by SS. Unknown costs will not support manufacturers continuing in our market.

[mike stenson]

You can't just extend utility or design patents that easily. Let's not get people all wound up that this is trivial.

[Edward Weber]

Patents are a big legal cost area. If you own a patent, you will need to sue people who violate it to get them to stop. That happened when Bosch tried to introduce their saw

I agree with the first part but did Bosch violate SS patents? A a layman, I would say no, it's a completely different system. As a lawyer (Law & Order University grad ) I would look at the tens of patents surrounding my product and find one that was breached, namely, the saw touching the finger triggering the activation. Everything else being different doesn't matter.

IMO, Bosch didn't bother to fight for two reasons.
1. The wall of patents facing them. There was no conceivable legal way of presenting their product as unique. SS had a patent covering EVERYTHING
2. The cost of fighting wouldn't be worth it, even if they somehow won

[Edward Weber]

So…. What was the price of the Altendorf vs Sawstop?


Why someone gets close to the blade can only be answered by the one who got injured. I can tell you right now, there are higher percentages that haven’t been caught by the blade.

Different countries, different machines, different everything, there is no comparison.

The point is that the tech exists, SS doesn't own the copyrite on safety itself.