Sharpening systems vs freehand/stones

[Tom M King]

One thing that Really helps get the exact same angle every time, which makes a difference when using jigs, is some method to easily get that exact angle every time. I made these and anyone can repeat the same angle easily. Without something that serves this purpose, a jig won't save you a lot of time.

Most people use some sort of projection jig, but those only work for one particular jig. These work for any jig.

If you're doing single bevel edge, you need to repeat the exact angle every session of setting it in the jig.

[Jim Koepke]

Whatever you do, pick one good system and stick with it until you master it. Unless you have great hand skills and steadiness use a jig to hold the blade.

My first stones were oilstones. Struggled with those for years. Then tried water stones. They cut much faster and sharpening wasn't a struggle. I never tried blade holders until using the Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening system. I even made a roller to fit the Mk.11 blade holders so they could be used when sharpening by hand.

After finally learning to sharpen by hand on water stones, a quick attempt at sharpening a gouge on an oilstone came off rather smooth and quickly. Now most of the time I use oilstones for sharpening since there isn't running water in my shop.

Funny how that worked. I see it as learning to sharpen on water stones taught me how to get results on my oil stones.

jtk

[James Jayko]

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I had the Veritas Mark II jig and hated it. I bought the LN one and its great. That said...you can do just fine with an Eclipse style for $20 from Woodcraft. Just make a projection stop thing. At least to get started...that $150 LN guide is intimidating to the wallet, and its the Caddilac, but the Toyota Camry will work just fine as well.

[Bob Jones 5443]

I know, but nothing about that Mickey Mouse contraption convinces me to spend the money on a Tormek right now. The $150 Wen has a reversible motor.

That lazy susan has too many extra levels and places to hold water which is not always just water. Extra work anywhere does not fit the program.

I'm with you. I've decided against getting the rotating base. I have mine on a tray with a 3/4" lip. I just spin the machine in the tray when I want to turn it. The tray is easy to clean.

I guess there's not a gadget for every task.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Honestly, the best thing is a good dose of following dogma by writ to get you immediate success. Once you have solid success following a procedure, then, you can experiment with other stuff.

As such, I recommend you start out via your three diamond stones and either the Lie Nielsen or Veritas sharpening jig. Stumpy Nubs and several others shows the method on the tube. It works well and will give you quick success.

I recommend you don't start freehand sharpening. It requires too much experience and muscle memory to get good early results. I don't recommend you start with machine sharpening, as it is extremely expensive.

I emphatically second John C. Cox's wisdom.

Also, to Roger Wiegand's post, once you work side by side with someone who has mastered a SIMPLE method (any simple method), you become a lifelong expert. That was my experience with David Charlesworth's DVD –– although I know some find his syntax and pacing off-putting. The man was a gift to sharpening as well as a lovely human being. I'm really good at sharpening because of him.

As we see every time a sharpening thread comes along, methods are as unique as the woodworkers. How do you butter your toast?

[Tony Wilkins]

I emphatically second John C. Cox's wisdom.

Also, to Roger Wiegand's post, once you work side by side with someone who has mastered a SIMPLE method (any simple method), you become a lifelong expert. That was my experience with David Charlesworth's DVD –– although I know some find his syntax and pacing off-putting. The man was a gift to sharpening as well as a lovely human being. I'm really good at sharpening because of him.

As we see every time a sharpening thread comes along, methods are as unique as the woodworkers. How do you butter your toast?

What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

[Luke Dupont]

My first stones were oilstones. Struggled with those for years. Then tried water stones. They cut much faster and sharpening wasn't a struggle. I never tried blade holders until using the Veritas Mk.11 Power Sharpening system. I even made a roller to fit the Mk.11 blade holders so they could be used when sharpening by hand.

After finally learning to sharpen be hand on water stones, a quick attempt at sharpening a gouge on an oilstone came off rather smooth and quickly. Now most of the time I use oilstones for sharpening since there isn't running water in my shop.

Funny how that worked. I see it as learning to sharpen on water stones taught me how to get results on my oil stones.

jtk

I've said this many times but I think your experience drives home the point:

Most people never learn to sharpen properly because they start with too fine a stone.

When learning, especially, you want to start with the coarsest, quickest cutting stone you can find.

Diamond stones did it for me. Now I sharpen free hand on Arks the vast majority of the time, which are neither fast nor forgiving, but I've come to really like them.

I'm very, very happy that I don't need to rely on jigs all the time. It means I can sharpen anything any time even if it doesn't fit in a jig or doesn't work in one, and it's just one less thing I need to fuss with -- one less frictional step in the way. Just stone, tool, oil, go.

[Warren Mickley]

What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

A flat bevel is helpful in hand work. None of these four sharpen with a flat bevel.

[mike stenson]

A flat bevel is helpful in hand work. None of these four sharpen with a flat bevel.

I, personally, don't notice a difference. I think this is largely personal preference and work methods.

[John C Cox]

What he said. Schwarz is good but I think he is an offshoot of David’s.

I’d watch a few ‘gurus’ and see what resonates with you. Each one will get you where you need to be, it’s just who makes the most sense to you. Try watching Cosman, Sellers, Charlesworth, and Schwarz (and other suggestions) and stick with the one that makes the most sense to you n

I understand the sentiment, but trying to pick something "that resonates" sort of misses the point. A neophyte often has no frame of reference for what is or isn't effective if followed by rote without any experience. Someone new needs to follow a procedure which does not rely on their skill or experience, and just following directions by rote doesn't "resonate" with a lot of people. They want the "Pro tip" or the "Game changer." They don't want to think of themself as "A beginner."

I'll give an example. Paul Sellers. I'm not picking on him, just using it as an example. A beginner buys the diamond stones and strop, and goes to town rolling bevel edges into a fat convex. It's fine for the 1st use on a new tool, but he chases the bevel angle higher on the second sharpening, and higher yet on the third because the beginner has not learned the muscle memory or control to gage or maintain the baseline bevel angle by eye. Soon, the chisel doesn't want to cut anything without a mallet, even when it's "Sharp." Worse, sharpening takes longer and longer each time because the apex is now hiding behind a fatter and fatter bevel. To fix it, that rounded bevel needs to be ground back off to re-establish the baseline angle, and that's a horrible proposition when freehand sharpening. I could make a similar observation about when a beginner applies Chatsworth's "Ruler trick" without knowing how much to take off or when to stop. He ends up with a 1/4" long back bevel, and wonders why his tool won't cut anymore.

My point is not to criticize those guys. It is to simply point out that methods like that are less useful for a beginner, because they rely on experience and gained practice. As one gains experience, those methods become far more useful. For example, say you start with jig sharpening and move to freehand. In your zeal, you accidentally chase the bevel up or round it too much, and it doesn't want to cut, or your polishing stones won't adequately dress the apex anymore. Well, you go back to the jig and grind it back to the correct angle, and off you go.

The goal is to present the neophyte with a method which results in repeatable results if the procedure is simply followed as written. Experienced users are a different story. They are often encouraged to optimize and experiment as they see fit, as they know how to evaluate results and fix their mistakes.

[Tony Wilkins]

Part of me wishes I had started with flat bevels. Is there anyone out there that teaches/demonstrates a flat bevel. I know Dereck uses a hollow grind to freehand. I use flat bevel on my sole Japanese chisel.

[Tony Wilkins]

My point was to watch them before buying anything. I realize that a new person would not have the experience to weigh the finer points of process but they should be able to say, “hey, that makes sense” or “I like the way this guy teaches.”

[Cameron Wood]

I've just been re-reading "Sharpening and the Japanese hand plane in depth" by Dale Brotherton. Had some extra time as the power was out for a day and a half.

Interestingly, he does not mention any bevel angle for a blade in the entire book. A side view photo of a plane blade as an example is as close as he comes.

[Jim Koepke]

I've just been re-reading "Sharpening and the Japanese hand plane in depth" by Dale Brotherton. Had some extra time as the power was out for a day and a half.

Interestingly, he does not mention any bevel angle for a blade in the entire book. A side view photo of a plane blade as an example is as close as he comes.

Angles are for each of us to find on our own. My bevel down planes usually have a 25-30º bevel. Much more than that and there isn't enough of a clearance angle behind the edge.

My chisels go from ~15º, for paring, to a few at 90º. > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?289820

jtk

[Joel Gelman]

You are EXACTLY like me. Historically more of a power tool woodworker, now beginning to appreciate the value of being better with hand tools and sharpening, and with limited available shop time. I once had a tormek and then went with a Lap-Sharp instead that went out of business. I ended up selling it because I wanted to focus on waterstones with a lapping plate (from nano hone) along with the LN honing jig and a 6 inch grinder for hollow grinding (but not along the entire bevel, just in the mid section. I figured after getting skilled with that with a dedicated sharpening station, I could then venture into a machine if and only if I truly could appreciate added value. After getting all the water stones I started to realize better to have the diamond stones that are courser as way easier and less messy than water with all the flattening. Now starting to appreciate the value of a leather strop after watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjiEmN5HzA&t=1203s

Anyhow, so many options and so many opinions. Just my 0.02.